The Lass Word: Defense Needs More of Quay's Fire
Unit could use some attitude.
By KenLass
The Green Bay Packers defense was the definition of mediocre last season, finishing around the middle of the league. That’s not good enough for a unit that, when it is at full strength, features seven first round draft picks. It is fashionable to blame defensive coordinator Joe Barry for the problems, and to some degree the criticism is certainly valid. It was maddening to see the defensive backs playing off receivers on third and short. Frustrating to watch the back four struggle in zones instead of using the athleticism of the secondary to play man.
But that was pass defense and, believe it or not, the Packers overall played pretty good pass defense in 2022. They ranked sixth in yards allowed through the air. Stopping the pass was not the problem. Green Bay simply could not keep opponents from running on them. The Pack was 26th in rush yards allowed. In fact, the only reason Green Bay finished so high in pass defense was probably because other teams didn’t have to throw.
While it’s easy to fault Barry for pass coverage scheme, it’s a little murkier when it comes to run defense. Stopping the run is more of an attitude. It’s largely man against man. Defeat your blocker or get blocked. Wrap up the ball carrier or get run over. It’s a physical war. One which the Packers usually lost.
How many times have we watched our defense play and appear to just get manhandled, to look soft and capitulated. I’m not sure that’s coaching. The best defensive players generate their own fire and motivation. The best example of this in green and gold is Jaquavian Jy’Quese Walker. Better known as Quay.
While Christian Watson was getting all the attention and fuss among Green Bay rookies last fall, number seven was quietly doing what ILB’s are supposed to do: make tackles. Despite being in his first year, despite playing alongside a returning first team All Pro in De’Vondre Campbell, Walker led the defense in total tackles, solo tackles, and assisted tackles. His combined total of 119 stops left the rest of the defense in the dust. The next highest total was 97 by Adrian Amos. Quay finished with five tackles for loss. He hits like a truck, as when he jarred a ball loose from Vikings tight end TJ Hockenson in week seventeen.
Walker, with a fierce intensity, made your jaw drop with his impressive burst of speed along the line of scrimmage to stop a ball carrier from turning the corner. When mobile quarterbacks, most notably the Bears’ Justin Fields, would break the pocket and head downfield, Walker would frequently chase them down from behind, preventing a big play. It takes passion and desire to want to make that kind of play. Walker made every NFL all rookie team, which is more than Watson can say. His total of three forced fumbles was exceeded by just five other players in the league.
Yet the enduring vision of Quay from last year is not one of his aggressive tackles. Rather, it is of the hot headed, slightly out of control missile who got himself kicked out of two games. With four minutes to play in the second quarter against Buffalo, with the Packers trailing 14-7, Walker pushed a practice squad player on the sideline after the end of the play. In the season finale versus the Lions, with the Packers leading 16-13 and just under eight minutes left in the game, Walker was ejected for shoving a member of Detroit’s medical team who was trying to get to an injured player on the field.
If you study the video of those two incidents more carefully, you will notice that, in the Buffalo incident, the undressed player appears to be talking to Walker just before getting shoved. Impossible to know what was said, but Walker was seen pleading his case to the official after the flag was thrown. Was he trying to explain that he was taunted?
In the Detroit game, Quay had his back turned to the trainer, who does extend his left arm on to Walker and appears to give him a light shove to get him out of the way. Walker reacts with a mild shove of his own. Interestingly, immediately after the contact, Devonte Wyatt intentionally bumps the same trainer, but nothing is called.
Minutes later, a poignant example of Walker’s passion could be seen after his dismissal from the Lions game. The first year player was visibly upset, and could be seen crying in the tunnel as he walked to the locker room. He would later tweet “I wasn’t upset about being kicked out, I just knew I messed up again and was wrong for what I did and couldn’t believe I did it again.”
Don’t misunderstand. Both penalties and ejections were justified. I’m not making excuses. But it does illustrate the fire and emotion with which Walker plays the game. I don’t know about you, but I like my defensive players to be just on the edge of being out of control. I want them high strung, emotional, in a foul mood and with bad intentions, playing with near reckless abandon. I’ll take the occasional unsportsmanlike conduct penalty in exchange for an attitude that is constantly aggressive and on the attack. The rest of Green Bay’s defense would do well to take the field with the same demeanor.
It is, I believe, no coincidence that, after Quay was ejected from the Lions game, the defense collapsed in the final eight minutes and allowed Detroit to not only take the lead, but also to run the final 3:27 off the clock and ultimately win the game, knocking the Packers out of the playoffs.
The good news is Quay’s attitude may be rubbing off. De’Vondre Campbell indicated there is a chip on his shoulder when he recently tweeted “I’m at my best when the world is against me. I love pressure. My whole football career has been built off pressure. This ain’t nothing new to me. I never question God's plan but I’m feeling 100% healthy and everyone gotta deal with me.”
I have no idea why Campbell thinks the world is against him, but if it gets him lathered up to play, I’m all for it. It’s time this whole defense gets angry. And stays angry.
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Ken Lass is a former Green Bay television sports anchor and 43 year media veteran, a lifelong Packers fan, and a shareholder.
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Comments (64)
stockholder
July 17, 2023 at 06:32 am
I agree with everything.
But the best defenses know how to make Adjustments.
1. Get Clarke help. This said it all about the DL.
2. Savage got benched.
While the Lbs can. The others just can't adjust.
Fire only goes so far.
Until they get 1 & 2 figured out.
Quay and Campbell will get used up.
Spock
July 17, 2023 at 08:28 am
SH, Can you at least spell Clark's name correctly; there is no "e" at the end of his name.
HawkPacker
July 17, 2023 at 04:06 pm
Stock, I agree on getting Clark some help. If the line can stop the run and be a little more disruptive, that will go along way to improving the defense and make the total defense better.
However, 'Fire only goes so far'. If you are pointing towards Quay is the only Fire and won't help the rest of the defense, I really do not agree. Being fired up is contagious and the defense needs that.
stockholder
July 17, 2023 at 05:04 pm
Yes- the whole defense needs to fire -up.
My last line was "used up". -per heart- Emotion.
Because it takes more than the ILBs firing up.
This Unit can't Let things happen
with the game on the line.
Its too draining.
NickPerry
July 17, 2023 at 06:36 am
"I like my defensive players to be just on the edge of being out of control. I want them high strung, emotional, in a foul mood and with bad intentions, playing with near reckless abandon. I’ll take the occasional unsportsmanlike conduct penalty in exchange for an attitude that is constantly aggressive and on the attack."
You know Ken, so do I. I'd love to see the entire Packers Defense playing with "Bad Intentions". Obviously I never want to see a Packers player ejected from a game, but I would like to see them right there on the edge. I want opposing RBs, WRs, and TE's to know every time they touch the ball Walker or another Packers defender is going to be there to put them on their ASS, and when they get put on their ass they FEEL the hit in every bone! I don't want dirty, just good clean hits. The ones where they start LOOKING for #7, before he's even there to make a play.
Walker is going to be tested. They'll talk about his mama, sister, wife, GF, ANYONE or ANYTHING to get under his skin so he does something stupid. He's got a reputation now. Players and coaches will try to get him., Refs and Officials will be watching him as well.
Walker can't react to the words, ONLY the guy with the ball.
mrtundra
July 17, 2023 at 07:42 am
You know the refs will have #7 written down on their hand, or arm, so they don't forget to throw a flag at something he may have done. Quay has become a "bad boy" and will need to be watched by people who do not remember that the game he is playing is called football. We need his attitude to be infectious on this Defense. I want to see our Defense become feared, throughout the League, once again. Quay Walker can be the catalyst of change we need to get that done. I look for a big year, from Quay. GO PACK, GO!!!
NickPerry
July 17, 2023 at 11:36 am
"I want to see our Defense become feared, throughout the League, once again."
Oh hell yeah!!! I'm now ready to run through a wall!!!
WestCoastPackerBacker
July 17, 2023 at 06:44 pm
I don't think refs will target Quay as long as he keeps his hands off of trainers and players not on the field. And doesn't do something equally egregious. Let's hope Quay, Van Ness, Wyatt, Brooks and Wooden have some fire. It's been awhile. I'm missing Mike Daniels.
SicSemperTyrannis
July 17, 2023 at 08:36 am
Coaching can do SO much for this! I've read people assert that the tram personality inevitably comes from HC. I hope that's not true or there are at least ways around that. I wouldn't want Quay (JJ? LOL maybe that should stick) as HC, MLF's cerebral approach has a place but there needs to be a shift somehow and somewhere that strikes fear into our opponents.
Bad boys JJ Quay and Brendan Cox might do it? Kenny Clarke and Ja are the more likely on field leaders. Don't count Luke Ness Monster out yet :)
croatpackfan
July 17, 2023 at 06:49 am
Ken, I agree with you. Every player shoould have the same attitude from the snap till the end of the down and/or whistle. After that every player should have attitude not to makes mistakes, like 2 time Quay did last season. If somebody taunt you, smile to his face and go away.
Same attitude should appear on O and ST!
SicSemperTyrannis
July 17, 2023 at 08:39 am
Croat, probably the best thing I've heard from our coaching staff the entire off season is their plan to keep Quay busy between plays. I'd love for him to be gone before anybody can even talk any smack, only to hit them like a Mack truck on the next play.
Good clean hits only :)
RCPackerFan
July 17, 2023 at 07:09 am
Obviously Walkers rookie year has been overshadowed by his ejection at the end of the season. But overall he had a good rookie year. He displayed some things that we haven't seen in a while. His speed for one was top notch. We haven't had an ILB that could run like he does. And when he got to the target he dropped them. And he always was able to punch the ball out which has been missing from our ILB's.
Walker will need to prove to be mentally strong and not react. He will be tested this year. Other teams will try and get under his skin to get him to react. I love his aggressiveness on the field but he will have a bit of maturing to do. Hopefully he did that this offseason.
"De’Vondre Campbell indicated there is a chip on his shoulder"
Campbell also recently indicated that he was unhealthy and played through injuries until the Washington game, and then got hurt just after.
Imagine if Campbell returns to 2021 form and Walker takes a big year 2 step.
As much as I like our ILB's it will really be up to the DL in front of these guys. We will see what happens on the DL in front of them. We know Clark is a stud. But he needs help. I feel like Slaton is becoming one of those guys that doesn't wow you with stats but is a really solid player. I like Slaton a lot. Wyatt didn't get a ton of snaps last year because they had Clark, Lowry, Reed and Slaton ahead of him. But when he got on the field he showed some very promising things. And this offseason when they allowed 2 veterans to leave, and didn't bring in another veteran you have to ask why. They did draft 2 DL and another guy that could slide inside as well. But I don't think that is why they didn't bring in a veteran. I think its because of Wyatt. I feel like he is about to explode this year. Maybe they look for a cut down guy or something, but I think they feel very good about Wyatt.
With a good DL, it will allow Walker and Campbell to do whatever they want.
I'm excited to see what our team looks like. We are only 9 days until camp starts. Countdown is on!
Go Pack Go!
SicSemperTyrannis
July 17, 2023 at 08:53 am
RC: "when he got to the play he dropped them."
Those are many of my favorite memories from last season :)
Quay looks like he hits hard. We need that! Coaches telling him to "stay busy between plays" is excellent. Before anybody can trash talk he's walking away, first in position for the next down and just STEWING up the next big nasty hit.
The solution could be that simple, and it could be contagious across the whole team.
GregC
July 17, 2023 at 07:10 am
The reason Walker led the team in tackles is that he was the inside linebacker who played the most snaps. That's almost always the player who's going to lead the team in tackles. Walker showed a lot of talent, though, and I'm hoping to see him progress this year. I've heard that the coaches will probably give him some snaps at edge rusher in certain situations.
Bitternotsour
July 17, 2023 at 09:58 am
Conversely, unlike AJ Hawk and Blake Martinez, he isn't making those tackles 8 yards downfield. Walker gets after it.
HawkPacker
July 17, 2023 at 04:12 pm
Downvote? Pulleeeaaase!
Oppy
July 17, 2023 at 07:24 am
1st half of 2022, Walker's play was.. underwhelming, to say the least.
2nd half of 2022, wow, talent showing through.
It is a shame he seemingly has an anger management issue. Hope he gets it under control. I don't want Quay Walker anywhere even near "the line" you're talking about. Other players? Sure... but Quay Walker needs to concentrate on keeping his emotions completely in check in 2023.
Leatherhead
July 18, 2023 at 11:28 am
I agree with that Oppy. He was a rookie, he made some rookie mistakes and gave up some plays, but by midseason he was a pretty solid part of the defense.
When you get thrown out of a game, it hurts the team. I kind of didn't want to mention this,but both of the games where he was ejected? Weren't they games we lost? By less than one score? Yeah, I thought so. I don't know how much his ejection hurt, but it didn't help.
Yeah, he'll be a marked man this year. He might want to wear wax plugs in his ears because he's going to hear things nobody wants to hear, and he's going to hear it every game. One swing or swipe is about all it's going to take, and we all know that the ref sees the second punch more often than the first. I don't envy him at all, but he has put himself in a bad spot.
Guam
July 17, 2023 at 07:26 am
I agree with the author, mindset and attitude are important. However I don't give Joe Barry a pass on the topic of player mindset and attitude because the type of defense you play impacts how aggressive you can be. When you play a passive "bend but don't break" defense (7 yards off the receivers when it is 3rd and 3), it is hard for the players to have an aggressive and attacking attitude. I think that is as true for run defense as it is for pass defense.
The Packers never shoot the gaps and look to tackle RBs behind the line of scrimmage. They seem to play more of a contain run defense that has D-linemen eat blocks while allowing linebackers to chase the ball along the line of scrimmage. If the D-linemen get double teamed and pushed back, suddenly the "line of scrimmage" is four yards deep into the Packer side of the ball and tackles get made 5-7 yards from the original line of scrimmage. And when you often play only two D-linemen, they are easily double teamed.
Scheme impacts attitude and for that I hold Joe Barry accountable.
SicSemperTyrannis
July 17, 2023 at 09:00 am
Guam,
absolutely! I don't have answers for this, only questions. I like seeing cherry picked stats that make last year's defense look good. "Situational football" is still a thing, and in many situations we got beat. Scheme? Relationships? Frustration?
Just seeing 100% effort from every player on every down, all game long and all season long would be a big improvement. I think coaching had to have been part of that last year, and I have no idea how none of that repeats this year. Once the regular season starts this factor will be HUGE!
CheesedDeadHead
July 17, 2023 at 06:02 pm
"If the D-linemen get double teamed and pushed back, suddenly the "line of scrimmage" is four yards deep into the Packer side of the ball and tackles get made 5-7 yards from the original line of scrimmage."
I thought the Packers lead the league (or were near the top) in the # of 2 DL snaps. I'm not a math brainiac, but I am guessing that's pretty easy for 5 lineman to double team 2 DL and accomplish that 5-7 yard push into Packer territory.
I don't expect them to stop a team on every down, but it would be great if "3 and done" became part of their approach to defense.
PatrickGB
July 17, 2023 at 07:21 pm
I agree. Yet the prevailing philosophy of the defense is that our OLB’s have the size to handle that. Preston, Gary and even LVN are big for OLB’s but they are not DE’s. Even the interior guys we drafted are more disrupter than space eater.
greengold
July 17, 2023 at 07:43 am
The Defense Needed More Talent.
That’s the truth of the matter. Not subpar, or non-scheme-specific players playing with attitude.
Dean Lowry running around with his hair on fire is still Dean Lowry.
Around 70% of the packages we saw in 2022 employed Cover 3, Quarters & Quarter Quarter Half. These Vic Fangio tree concepts require unique players who can play multiple positions. They also require positional depth in case of injury, or else you’ll get run on.
We got run on. Tire tracks & all.
Our DL ranked #32 in the NFL.
SicSemperTyrannis
July 17, 2023 at 09:02 am
Vic Fangio concepts being played, Vic Fangio available in the off season, Vic Fangio not in our building.
GG, I'm nervous about that, LOL
greengold
July 17, 2023 at 11:38 am
The beauty is yet to behold. At some point, Packer fans are going to have to accept that our entire defense has been under reconstruction since 2021 when Joe Barry was hired.
How many players remain on this roster who were Packers previous to Barry’s hiring? FIVE!!!
Kenny Clark
Jaire Alexander
Preston Smith
Rashan Gary
Darnell Savage
Jonathan Garvin? My guess is he’s not long for this team.
If we hired Fangio, that’s pretty much all we’d get. How many Super Bowls has Vic Fangio helped to win as a DC? Zero.
Joe Barry & LaFleur are picking and choosing parts of a number of different concepts to make their own defensive scheme. Along with other concepts, the Packers also ran:
Cover 0 3% Rank 6th in NFL
Cover 1 15% Rank 27th in NFL
Cover 2 6% Rank 27th in NFL
This is probably the first year Barry has had a full complement of players to run their scheme. Scheme specific players of their choosing from 3 drafts. They couldn’t afford to add more via FA. There will certainly be more added next year.
At least now we’ll get to see what they’ve been working on. We have to keep in mind too, a lot of rookies and the accompanying rookie mistakes on both sides of the ball as they learn.
Every defender added capable of playing multiple positions. All DBs added adept at both man & zone coverages. I’m excited to see this in action, with Barry having his hand picked players, the best Gutekunst could acquire.
This is the last I’ll say on it. We’ll see.
mnbadger
July 17, 2023 at 10:39 pm
GG - "Dean Lowry running around with his hair on fire is still Dean Lowry."
One of my personal favorites during the time I've followed CHTV.
Best part is that he's now a queen!
GPG!
greengold
July 18, 2023 at 10:54 am
LOL. Glad you liked that. It didn't suck...!!!!
LeotisHarris
July 17, 2023 at 08:31 am
Good call, Ken. Yes, this D needs a Wayne Simmons; the guy who just might mess you up and not care about the flag. The key there is having the ability to command that type of respect while not having to deliver anything close to an illegal hit, but the "what if" remains in the opponent's mind.
Salah called these guys soft, and they looked it. I'm all for some swagger, and good hard, clean hits. Solid tackling, no YAC, and a very uncomfortable opposing QB. Seems the talent is there to expect all that and more. JohnBlood outlined the road map for it to happen.
SicSemperTyrannis
July 17, 2023 at 09:04 am
LH,
I believe hitting like a Mack truck fits into that scheme somewhere :)
greengold
July 17, 2023 at 05:48 pm
Brenton Cox Jr. enters the chat.
T7Steve
July 17, 2023 at 08:32 am
We need a mean and nasty D-line (and maybe some others). They didn't call him "Mean Joe Green" just because it sounded cool. He earned it! Reggi White didn't strike fear in opposing O-lines and teams because he was a preacher. He was the "Minister of Defense"!
How about "100 Watts" of brilliance?
SicSemperTyrannis
July 17, 2023 at 09:12 am
TIL that Quay Walker's first two names start with J. Call him JJ! LOL. Might light a fire under him. We need that fire!
Some players play better with 0 emotion, some play better filled with it. I don't pretend to have his answer, but if he consistently plays with his hair on fire that just might spread ...
T7Steve
July 17, 2023 at 01:55 pm
Killo Watt?
greengold
July 17, 2023 at 04:37 pm
I'll tell you what, Steve-o...! I cannot wait to see Quay Walker playing off his old teammate's reads. Walker and Devonte Wyatt could together be something else. Stokes too, when healthy? They just know each other's play so well.
Ferrari-Driver
July 17, 2023 at 05:01 pm
I would love a "Mean Joe Green" on our defensive line. He was not only a pro bowl player, but he was an "Enforcer". I recall one play where the Steelers were playing the Bears and Dick Butkus made a late hit on a Steelers' running back and "Mean Joe" grabbed Butkus by the front of his Jersey and lifted him up to be eye to eye with Joe. Of course none of us could hear the words on TV, but I'm willing to bet two cents that they weren't an invitation to dinner. Butkus didn't do a thing other than to walk away.
Ferrari-Driver
July 17, 2023 at 09:14 am
Ken, you hit the nail on the head this time. I want to see some emotion in these guys like we had with old number 66, Ray Nitschke who used to growl at opposing players with his two front teeth missing. When he tackled a back running up the middle, Nitschke would hit the guy like he never wanted him to run up the middle again.
baldski
July 17, 2023 at 04:01 pm
Right, He was my hero as a kid. I've seen him knocked of his feet by a blocker and still get up and make the tackle.
Leatherhead
July 17, 2023 at 09:48 am
This sums up the nuttiness:
""""....the Packers overall played pretty good pass defense in 2022. They ranked sixth in yards allowed through the air. Stopping the pass was not the problem. ........
While it’s easy to fault Barry for pass coverage scheme,""""
So, Barry should be faulted for having one of the best pass defenses in the league. OK. Got it. Let me write that down so I don't forget.
This "didn't have to pass" stuff is nonsense, too. We gave up a lot of yards on the ground against Philly....twice as many as any other game. #2 on the list was Chicago, with 180 on the ground. They got 10 points and we won. New England got 167 in a game we won. Dallas got 159 in a game we won. Chicago, again with 155 yards on the ground and 19 points. We won. We held Detroit to 104 and 117....both losses.
One more time: The Packers aren't concerned with stuffing the run. If you stuff the run on first down, it greatly increases the probability that the next two plays will be passes, which will average 7.0 yards/attempt, which will be a first down and maybe even a big play. The design of the Packer defense is to see if teams have the ability, and the patience, to engineer 12 play drives down the field. We would much rather see teams run than pass, and if you stuff the run, they're going to pass.
7 > 5. Still.
Bitternotsour
July 17, 2023 at 10:02 am
I gotta hand it to you Leatherhead, you are not going to stop beating your head against the wall to instruct the slow-to-learn. 7 indeed, is greater than 5.
for those of you at home 7 refers to yards per attempt, 5, same. that means if/when you throw it, it's better. ergo, force them to run. that doesn't mean make it easy to run, but it's a philosophy, or perhaps, a defensive "scheme". weird right? the hated joe barry has a scheme to his defense.
think back in time to when mike mccarthy invented the "big five". no one could stop it. all the fan base could think of is "we can't run the ball". but i digress.
so many reading this will be like, why are maths so hard...
Bitternotsour
July 17, 2023 at 10:17 am
AND - it all comes down to the Beavis and Butthead narrative. Did you score.
T7Steve
July 17, 2023 at 03:17 pm
Just so I understand, 3x5=15, right? Is that why it's better to not let them pass for 7? If I could get 15 yards by running 3 times, I think I wouldn't risk passing. Wait! That's what teams were doing to us. Or did we do that to them?
I must be missing something here.....
Leatherhead
July 17, 2023 at 04:08 pm
Three rushing plays =15 yards, if you're giving up 5.0 yards per rush, which we did.
Three passing plays =21 yards. Two out of the three are probably completed, for 10 or more yards each.
In theory, if you ran every play for 5 yards you could go from the 25 to the endzone in 15 plays. If you passed every play, you'd have some incomplete passes, but you'd be in the endzone in 11 plays.
How is it better to have Kirk Cousins throwing it 40 times for 280 yards than have Dalvin Cook getting 150 in 30 carries? If Cousins throws it 40 times, he'll complete at least 25 of them....some of them to people like Jefferson.
I like this strategy. I think it's genius. Now, our first game of the year is against the Bears, and they were the best rushing team in the league last year by a lot, and we're going to give up a bunch of yards on the ground to these guys. But at the end of the day, it'll be about points, not yards.
Bitternotsour
July 17, 2023 at 08:45 pm
I always loved the story problems:
AJ gets on the train at the twenty, he gains seven on first down, and Jordan Love hits Watson on a skinny post for 73, touchdown.
Q. At which point do the Bears suck.
(trick question, the Bears ALWAYS suck)
Leatherhead
July 18, 2023 at 10:44 am
This is an actual story problem that I gave to many students throughout the years.
" If Bill is on a train heading East at 40mph, and Sue is on a train heading West at 35 mph, how far apart will they be when they realize they made a mistake?"
Of course, there is no real correct answer for that, but I liked watching the looks on their faces as they tried to figure it out.
GregC
July 17, 2023 at 10:30 am
You make it sound like the Packer defense is designed to trick the other team into running the ball more by not stuffing the run. I have a hard time believing that opposing teams would fall for that. The stats you are using for running plays vs. passing plays are raw averages. I don't think you are accounting for the fact that when you stuff the run, you put the other team into more difficult down and distance situations, which makes it harder for them to pick up first downs and keep drives alive.
Bitternotsour
July 17, 2023 at 10:35 am
it's not a trick. it's math.
yes, this will be on the test.
the most important defensive stat is scoring defense. the most important offensive stat, is points.
Bitternotsour
July 17, 2023 at 10:43 am
unless you are the bears, throwing the ball is the most likely road to the end zone.
leatherhead tried to help, but as the great dorothy parker said, you can lead a horticulture...
greengold
July 17, 2023 at 03:52 pm
You mean like "Farm to Table?"
GregC
July 17, 2023 at 10:49 am
I am definitely with you on the most important defensive stat being points allowed. By that measure, the Packers had an average defense last year. Not a disaster, but they need to get better. And run defense is an obvious area that needs improvement.
Bitternotsour
July 17, 2023 at 10:54 am
conversely, what really needed to happen was for the offense to be better. this head coach is advertised as an offensive genius, and his offense was decidedly bad last year.
he was hamstrung by a quarterback who thought he was the head coach (and GM). i expect better this year. scoring more points will help the defense. weird, right?
Leatherhead
July 17, 2023 at 12:33 pm
Virtually every team that made the playoffs last year was a better offensive team than the Packers. 10 of the top 11 offenses made the playoffs. The Giants, Bucs, and Ravens were worse than the Packers.
Defensively, 6 of the top 11 defenses made the playoffs. 5 playoff teams had weaker defenses than the Packers.
We have to have a more reliable offense. We had 8 games last year where we scored 21 or fewer points and we lost 7 of them. When we scored at least 24,, we were 7-1. 24 points is 3 touchdowns and a FG in 11 possessions, which would be about an average Drive Success Rate....we were 16th last year, at 36.2%. 12 of the 15 teams who did better made the playoffs. An extra .5 points per possession....about 5 or 6 points in a game....would make us one of the better offenses around.
GregC
July 17, 2023 at 03:05 pm
I agree that the offense was a bigger problem than the defense last year. That was kind of expected though, as they let Davante Adams and MVS go and replaced them with Sammy Watkins and some rookies. Meanwhile, they invested heavily in the defense in terms of draft picks and money, and they didn't get as much as expected in return. KC winning a Super Bowl with a below average defense was unusual. That shouldn't lower the standards for everybody else.
Leatherhead
July 17, 2023 at 11:35 am
Greg. yes, we are trying to trick teams into not passing the ball downfield, where a certain percentage will be completed (around 67%) for over 10 yards/completion. And you are correct, teams don't just fall for it...usually.
Here's a scenario: Your opponent comes out and runs for 5 or 6 yards. And then he does it again. First down. And again, 2nd and 5. And the genius OC for your oppponent says "They're trying to trick me into not passing. I'll show them.!!" And he passes, and it's another first down.
So every play has worked, and people are screaming about our pathetic defense, but the ball hasn't even crossed midfield yet. So they take a lower percentage shot downfield on first down, and it's incomplete. Then on 2nd down, they rush for about 7 yards, but they get called for a hold. Now it's 2nd and 20. We bring in the pass defense and they're second and long on their half of the field. Our run defense has looked terrible, of course, but the odds are that this drive is stopped.
This is what is happening. As you noted, the bottom line is points. According to pro-football-reference, the Packer defense gave up 357 points last year, in 17 games, a straight 21 points/game average. Fewer points than the KC defense. We gave up two more TDs than the Iggles.
Understand this: If the run defense "improves", then the opponent is going to throw more, and as always 7 >5. That's math.
greengold
July 17, 2023 at 04:28 pm
This is in no way meant to be disparaging, LH, but I don't believe this for a second. There's no "tricking" OCs. As a matter of fact, you unwittingly explained the answer to what is really going on by referring to the culprit(s) as "The genius OC."
It's not trickery. It's the fact that they cannot help themselves but to call the sexy pass plays. We've seen it going back to Air Coryell. They all want to be "The Guru!" "The Genius!" "The Mastermind!"
That's my take. The only person in the NFL I know of who is immune is Bill Belichick, and he's not an OC. However, he demands use of a solid running game.
Bitternotsour
July 17, 2023 at 08:57 pm
some credit should be afforded to good d-coordinators. also, there are, to be fair, OC's and head coaches who opt for patient ball control. it's boring as fuck, but it exists in Tennessee.
It's less boring in Baltimore. That said, a top ten D is no super bowl or even playoff guaranty, conversely, a top ten offense usually gets you in the playoffs.
if the GB D is middle of the road, and keeps their points total near the top ten, I expect great things this year. I expect J Love to ball out. I expect MLF to finally show why he got hired. all gas, no brakes, right Matt?
Leatherhead
July 18, 2023 at 11:08 am
Mornin' GG. I want to talk to you about this:
""" There's no "tricking" OCs."""
SunTzu said all warfare is based on deception. In every sport I've ever played, trying to mislead your opponent is part of it, and IMO, there's more of it in football than in basketball or hockey or baseball or tennis.
In football, we have coaches covering their mouths when they speak into their headsets so that some lip reader with a camera can't tell the defense what's coming. True fact. One of my favorite plays, the reverse, is all about trickery. So is the screen, and the draw. So are fake punts.
I agree that most coaches will outsmart themselves and that the attraction of the big downfield strike is greater than plugging it into the line over and over.
In this specific instance of the Green Bay strategy on defense, I think we'd rather have teams run at us instead of throw at us, and if we discourage the run, it encourages the pass, and vice-versa. Teams are not going to run 10-12-14 straight runs because , as you pointed out, they cannot help themselves. Or they'll take a penalty and have to throw. Or they'll decide they have to use that $20 million WR and they'll take a shot against the strength of our defense.
It's trickery that plays on the natural inclinations of the OC. And that's why I think it's genius. You're encouraging him to do what he already is hard-wired to want: Throw it to a superduper.
KnockTheSnotOutOfYou
July 17, 2023 at 10:18 am
Ken,
Nice job 👏 and I agree!
Last year, I went from how did we draft Quay with our first pick to damn this guy was a great pick! Plays with his hair on 🔥 fire. Unlike many I have never been concerned about those two penalties. What is more difficult to accomplish? Getting a player to continuously play with Quays intensity, or to rectify his out of bounds behavior where he over reacts on two random plays?
Quay is already my favorite defensive player because of his firey attitude & intensity who will 'Knock the Snot out of You!' Something that has been missing since Bishop. I am so interested in those 3 Edge & defensive lineman they drafted this year and how they develop. If the Packers successfully hit on even two of them and Wyatt comes into his own the defense has the pieces around Quay to be a force for years to come. Already drooling about the young talented linebackers/edge of Quay, Gary, & Hercules with a strong defensive line, and a talented defensive backfield.
KnockTheSnotOutOfYou
July 17, 2023 at 07:53 pm
Furthermore, adding Brenton Cox Jr at Edge with Quay in the middle will really add some intensity & fire on defense. 😀
This is going to be a very fun training camp on both sides of the ball. Do you focus on defense, or offense in camp? Holy Hanna!
splitpea1
July 17, 2023 at 11:27 am
Playing with fire is half of the equation; the other half is directing it efficiently, and that can be done with relentless film study. When Ray Lewis found out he was constantly being studied by Payton Manning at home, he decided to take the same approach on defense in studying all of his opponents. Just like Manning, he built a room in his home totally dedicated to doing this....So if Walker wants to take his game to the next level and develop leadership skills to go with it, here's a proven blueprint.
Lphill
July 17, 2023 at 01:46 pm
Wyatt should have played more last season he was a first rounder he needed the snaps , he will compliment Clark , was his development held back by Joe Barry? probably
lou
July 17, 2023 at 07:40 pm
I would also like to know why as a #1 pick Wyatt received far too many snaps which under the current GM has to be a big question as to why ? Look at how many Josh Jackson had his rookie year as a high pick and the number of chances Burks, Amari Rodgers, and Montravious Adams were given before the Packers wrote them off. Either the coaching staff limited Wyatt's playing time or they did not think he had the talent and/or new the defense enough to put him out there. Walker was given every opportunity from day 1 on the other end of the spectrum.
Qoojo
July 17, 2023 at 05:47 pm
My enduring vision of Walker's rookie season is of him making tackles while 2-4 other defenders stood and watched, especially in the big losses like against washington.
Thegreatreynoldo
July 18, 2023 at 04:03 am
I agree that the defense could use a little more attitude. I am not so sure that Walker's brand of tude is what is needed, but perhaps so. More swarming to the ball would help. More attacking rather than reacting might help.
Some of the evidence cited seems shaky. Quay and Amos led the Packers in tackles, a LB and a S. That's to be expected. 39 of the top 50 NFL leaders in tackles were LBs and the other 11 were all safeties. This is normal. In any event, Quay and Amos were 2 of the 4 worst starters on defense, since Savage and Lowry were out there.
I agree that Quay hits hard, and was a good tackler (4.7% missed tackle rate). That said, his game was speed rather than physicality. [I don't think this needs to stay that way, btw.] It made him good in coverage (63 passer rating allowed). But he was much better at chasing than he was at taking on. That, and his mental processing, made him a real liability against the run. He was a first round talent with day three instincts. If he can improve the speed of his processing, the way he oozes with talent should make him a perennial pro bowler.
NoNonsense
July 18, 2023 at 08:42 am
I went and watched Packer highlights of both Walker and Enagbare, that was fun. Both guys show a fire and tenacity that the defense needs more of. Should both guys improve on some of their weaknesses this season this defense could be nasty.
Also went back and watched some highlights of Wyatt both from college and his rookie season. That dude has elite movement skills for a man his size, and uses his hands really well. If it clicks for him this year, he's gonna be trouble for a lot of offenses both in the run game and against the pass.
I'm excited for football to start and it's not too far away.