Confessions of a Polluted Mindset - Quick Hits
The Weekly Packers Brain Drain from Jersey Al.
By JerseyAl
My Sunday was mostly spent on a beach in Florida. We did go back to our rental for lunch so I did check in on the start of the game on my phone. The main thing I wanted to see was if it would look any different. Obviously it did not, so after three possessions, I turned the phone off and headed back to the beach.Having just returned, I haven't had time to watch more than the first half before writing this column or pay attention to what the reactions to the game have been here in the comment section or elsewhere. So even more than usual, this post is just a collection of quick, random thoughts
Luke Musgrave has to learn to use a stiff arm. When presented with a would be tackler, he just leans forward, lowers his shoulder and gives himself up to much smaller defensive backs, who just take out his legs. Stay balanced and swat those little guys away with a stiff arm. He goes down way too easily.
Jaire Alexander should probably not have been playing.
Rasul Douglas, one guy who really cared and competed on every play, deserved better than this team. And he got it. My first reaction was why him? But then I realized that what I wrote in the first sentence is the exact reason he had value to another team.
I'm really tired of the "defense only gave up xx points and kept them in the game" argument. They've been helped by missed and blocked field goals. They've given up huge chunks of field position and ball possession time (over 36 minutes in this game). They can't get off the field on third down. They've allowed opponents to methodically march down the field in second halves to score points and secure their wins. Frankly, it's a "playing not to lose" approach, and that just doesn't work that often.
I don't get people criticizing Aaron Jones for not catching that early pass from Love. That was a terrible pass. Jones is all alone in the flat and you can't make a simple pass to hit him in stride? Jones had to pirouette and jump to try to haul it in. Yes, he got hands on the ball and could have caught it, but I'm not faulting Jones at all. That should be a pass Love can make blindfolded.
The Packers have previously shown they have no idea how to handle a bunch formation. In this game, I'm thinking specifically of the third down 22 yd. completion to TJ Hockenson to the four yard line in the first quarter.
There's little doubt when AJ Dillon is the lone RB, teams are looking for an inside handoff first and foremost. Which explains why he is often met in the backfield, and why his best effectiveness has actually been in the passing game.
And there's little doubt LaFleur has an Aaron Jones blind spot. He's their only reliable weapon on offense but touches the ball 11 times.And why won't they give him the ball at the goal line? He emphatically proved his ability to score in those situations two years ago.
Matt LaFleur says they will be making changes to their preparation process during the week. The idea is to be "more deliberate" in how they give the players the information they need. My take on that is that they've been making too many assumptions that these young players will know the right things to do in certain situations. Obviously, these young players need better and simpler instructions and more details on responsibilities
Some clock management - After the first play of the two minute warning, the Packers let 40 seconds run off the clock and eventually take a time out with 1:15 left on the clock. Now, I get wanting to run some clock so you don't potentially give the ball back to the Vikings with time for them to do something. I get that, But you're on the 49 yard line and now you've only given a little over a minute to a sputtering offense. It's kind of like conceding you're happy to just get into field goal range. And that's what happens. They are able to advance the ball down to the 17 yard line, and it's first down, but now there are only 12 seconds left to work with and no timeouts. It would have been great to have time to take three shots at the end zone there. In summary, if they were already at the 30 yard line just after the two minute warning, by all means, run clock, But if you're at the 49 yard line, you're going to need that time if you want a shot a seven points instead of three.
Addendum: A quick juxtaposition having now watched most of the second half. Vikings get a turnover, ball on Green Bay's 20 yard line. First play - they go for the jugular w/ TD pass to Addison. Packers get a turnover, ball on Vikings 15 yard line, 5:54 left in the game. First play - shotgun handoff to Dillon for 1 yard. And the worst part was, I absolutely knew that was going to be the play call.
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"Jersey Al" Bracco is the Editor-In-Chief, part owner and wearer of many hats for CheeseheadTV.com and PackersTalk.com. He is also a recovering Mason Crosby truther. Follow Al on twitter at @JerseyalGBP.
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Comments (206)
TKWorldWide
November 01, 2023 at 06:19 am
I don’t consider myself a moron when it comes to football, but maybe I should reconsider: are the problems due to inexperience, or coaching, or, were many of these (mostly defensive) players over drafted? Or are they just not very good?
Is it reasonable to expect Love’s accuracy to improve?
What would benefit him more: a better O-line, or a freak like Marvin Harrison Jr?
How many new running backs will they need next year? I get what Al means about the D expecting 28 to go up the gut, but coaches frequently claim they want to use players according to their strengths. 28 is too slow to run wide. Agreed that he’s done well with the receiving game.
It’s only mid season, but it’s kinda sad that 5 picks in the first 3 rounds is the most exciting thing about this team right now.
NickPerry
November 01, 2023 at 06:42 am
"It’s only mid season, but it’s kinda sad that 5 picks in the first 3 rounds is the most exciting thing about this team right now."
I'm there with you TK, it is SAD but so true. But the thing that makes this turn my stomach even more is wondering exactly WHO will be making those picks and coaching them up in 2024?
This team is totally lost. The 2020 and 2021 drafts have been complete busts, and MLF and his staff? Well we know. I don't want Gute making those 5 picks in 3 rounds...NO WAY. Talk about a ship without a rudder...
Racingdad
November 01, 2023 at 08:54 am
Question to ponder - were the players drafted in 20+21 really busts?? Or just poorly coached ? Considering the current coaching staff were mostly the people training them ???
Razer
November 01, 2023 at 09:30 am
...were the players drafted in 20+21 really busts?? Or just poorly coached ?...
Great question. Unfortunately, the question still persists.
jannesbjornson
November 01, 2023 at 09:53 am
The evidence is right in front of your eyes every Sunday. No SB 4 you. The data point starts with his 2018 draft and really with the collective blowing the 2017 draft making picks for Ted. It is obvious this guy doesn't know jack about building a team.
WestCoastPackerBacker
November 01, 2023 at 11:07 am
It's pretty sad that the pride of the GBPs, the strong offensive line has dropped so, so far off, particularly during the evaluation of the young QB. I mean the drafts have a bunch of not-so-greats. This is a LOT of poor picks. I mean every GM has multiple whiffs, but drafting the offensive line used to be a strength of GB scouts. And even the good players are getting worse (Jenkins).
Myers
Runyan
Hanson
Van Lanen
Rhyan
Newman
Not even counting Cole Madison and Simon Stepaniak, that never even saw the field.
Given how poor Gutey's first year was, it's not tough to see why this team is so very, very bad. #12 and #17 covered for a lot of holes on this team.
Coldworld
November 01, 2023 at 02:17 pm
No Tom? The odd thing as well is that Runyon and Jenkins have markedly regressed. Nijman too, but possibly more due to off field handling. Pick or coaching?
Myers we can’t even try. I’d assume that was a signal that he’s a write off but they had to be forced to try Tom last year and still persist with Newman, who was worse in camp.
This may not be a great group, but it’s sure as hell poorly handled in Personnel and positional terms, is apparently technically inept and that’s getting worse.
SicSemperTyrannis
November 01, 2023 at 05:17 pm
Oh, the ship has a rudder. It's Mr We Are Not Idiots, and he's steering right into the rocks. Maybe he can get a #1 pick? That would be a record breaker, wouldn't it?
Cheezehead72
November 01, 2023 at 06:51 am
You are on the right track. It is not one thing. This is a young team and yes they will make mistakes and they will have to learn. The main problem is this coaching staff is not built for a young team that needs more time and attention to develop and mold together.
Defensively we have good players but there is a drop off when there is an injury. That is due to the salary cap situation MM and Gute put us in. The other main problem is we have a DC who is too slow to make adjustments and changes. MLF made a mistake last year by keeping him.
Offensively yes they do need a better OL. I do not agree that we need to draft a QB. Now if Williams is available I would jump on him but that would require the first pick. We do need to see what Mcough can do and to see if we want to keep him. Yes Harrison would be a good pick. He is a good player already and he has a very good tutor that will make sure he remains good on and off the field. He would be a safe pick. But the Packers have to redo the OL and no position should be safe from changes. Sign some veterans this off season and pick up guys in the draft. It starts up front. We should draft 1 or 2 RBs.
There is nothing this team can do this year to make the playoffs. The goal now should be to develop players. If they win great but lets look to next year.
TKWorldWide
November 01, 2023 at 09:00 am
“I do not agree that we need to draft a QB.” Are you saying I suggested that? Not trying to stir the pot; just seeking clarification.
coolhand
November 01, 2023 at 05:03 pm
The goal now should be to develop players
I'm not sure this coaching staff CAN develop young players in a positive way.
SicSemperTyrannis
November 01, 2023 at 05:21 pm
Players aren't developing, they're regressing.
TarynsEyes
November 01, 2023 at 10:45 am
" or, have many of these (mostly defensive) players been over drafted? Or are they just not very good?"
The answer, IMO, lies in the floor-ceiling method of defining talent/ability. There isn't as much separation between any of the players, regardless of where drafted. This also lends me to believe that the Gary signing (game wrecker money for a no-show player at times) is based on him just being the best of the worst, but one needs to hang their hat on someone. Another question for this is how many good teams would make room for our starters, less our backups? I don't believe any of this team's players start elsewhere, unless it is the known bottom-feeders, which is what this team is now known to be, and cannot be denied. What does it say when your best player, picked up off another team's PS, and became your identity player over 8 1st rd drafted players, then gets traded and most feel like their hearts were ripped out? Are the Packers inundated with over-valued players? Gee, yes, they are. However, I'm sure some stat lover will attempt to disprove this because they look so good against crap. We lost to the Raiders, and they fired their HC, and most here, eventually will continue to deny as each day progresses after each loss from horrible play and coaching. The worst thing for this team right now, would be a bs win over another bad team, like the Rams.
TKWorldWide
November 01, 2023 at 01:15 pm
I wish RAS somehow included tackling ability. Intensity. A little bit of nasty.
Grandfathered
November 01, 2023 at 07:44 pm
Overly melowdramatic today Taryn. You are saying Gary, Clark, Walker Alexander, Jones, Jenkins, and Tom would not be starters on other teams? And did you see what the Raiders GM and coach have done to their team in the last 2 years? Not a good comparison. Craziest of all is stating that the worst thing would be for the Pack to win a game. After 7 games? Ridiculous.
TarynsEyes
November 01, 2023 at 11:27 pm
They would start on other mediocre and worse teams, but none are bumping the better from the better teams.
I think you place too much value on them, when their play has shown it to be mediocre. I know many want to blame all on the coaching, but there isn't a leader among them on either side of the ball. Wait, they just traded away the only one who might have filled that role. None of these guys play to leadership roles, yet you believe them to be starters on the better teams. They'll start by default on some, but certainly not all.
Savage57
November 01, 2023 at 06:20 am
On the powder puff TE's. Going back as far as FinMe, it seems all defenders need do is wave a hand at Packer's TE's ankles and they collapse like they got shot.
On Love having the touch of Frankenstein's monster on short throws. As the season's progressed he's rushing his check downs more instead of less. Hearing footsteps.
On the end of the first half clock. As those seconds were ticking off the question, "Do you want to lose?" popped up in my head. Sho nuf, FGA instead of TD shots.
On Dillon consistently getting stoned on short yardage runs. "Let's do more of what's not working, but harder!"
LeotisHarris
November 01, 2023 at 08:44 am
"On Dillon consistently getting stoned on short yardage runs. "Let's do more of what's not working, but harder!"
God, that's perfect!
At the end of the first half, Mrs. Harris, a casual fan, questioned the clock management. This is the Packers' world in which we live. They can't see where they are going, and can't get out of their own way if they happen to get there by accident.
UdderApocowlipse
November 01, 2023 at 09:42 am
Hey I just read your response to my inquiry to Mr. Al about that Jets game where the fans rushed the field. Thank you for sharing the video of it with me, the clip being a game of the '61 Boston Patriots. It probably didn't have anything to do with the JETS. I've gotta imagine that was what I'd watched, and it was real satisfying watching it again.
So good seeing your response to that post from a week or two back. It was like an epiphany of some sort. Thanks again.
TKWorldWide
November 01, 2023 at 01:16 pm
Paul Coffman, baby! Talk about a diamond in the rough!
SicSemperTyrannis
November 01, 2023 at 05:26 pm
Musgrave went down with first contact in College. He's a big receiver. Kraft is the (potential) YAC machine.
Who's the TE coach? Did he ever play TE? Did he ever play TE well?
NickPerry
November 01, 2023 at 06:28 am
I just can't believe how FAR this team has fallen, how BAD this team is everywhere, and now the one guy I had defended for the most part I just lost ANY faith I had in him...Brian Gutekunst. It's been a long time since I read "Polluted Mindsets" and every paragraph by Al was pretty much a negative but all TRUE.
When I heard Rasul was traded yesterday I couldn't believe it. He was one of the very few players I still enjoyed watching, and seemed to give a damn. I have no idea what the future holds for the Packers but I do know I don't want Gute as the GM any longer. Hey, maybe he'd be better if he was allowed to named his own HC and run the team like Wolf and Thompson were allowed to before him. But now, I don't care...He needs to GO!
I have a questions, maybe Coldworld knows or TGR but here it is. Is there ANY WAY the Packers name the next President BEFORE Murphy is actually gone, like a President in waiting, so a house cleaning could be done THIS year. A new GM is brought in KNOWING who his boss will be so this FULL REBUILD could start in 2024, when the Packers have a top 3 pick?
The Packers are in a horrible position IMO. Is 2024 going to be a throw away year? Do they keep this INEPT administration and staff in place just because Murphy will be here next season too? I mean a GM worth a damn isn't going to come in knowing the new President COULD fire him once he started in 2025 because he wasn't the new Presidents first choice.
This is SO F'd up!!
Cheezehead72
November 01, 2023 at 07:07 am
I agree the leadership of this team is the main reason for their failure. When there are issues in all aspects of the team it is the leadership and coaches that are the problem.
I will capitalize this so people see it. I DO NOT BELIEVE THIS WILL HAPPEN. Ok now that I typed that the best thing this team can do for next year is to fire MM, Gute, MLF, and Berry. Now the Executive Committee will never fire MM one and a half year before he must retire because they are old and living in the past like most Packer fans. Also they need to keep continuity with the draft coming to GB and if they fired MM that would require more work from them.
I do not see MM firing Gute before he retires but it might happen. I do see him making a statement and firing MLF and some of the other coaching staff just to show people he is not just sitting on his hands until retirement.
Next year might be a long year again.
NickPerry
November 01, 2023 at 07:39 am
"I do not see MM firing Gute before he retires but it might happen. I do see him making a statement and firing MLF and some of the other coaching staff just to show people he is not just sitting on his hands until retirement."
THIS is my nightmare...
WHAT Head Coaching Candidate would come to Green Bay in 2024 knowing he could lose his job a year later when a new team President is named and he names HIS OWN General Manager?
Crap!!
egbertsouse
November 01, 2023 at 08:03 am
That will not be a problem. We all know how the Packers operate. When Murphy retires, Gute will become president and whatever stooge is presently carrying Gute’s Gatorade will become GM. It will be totally inbred.
dobber
November 01, 2023 at 08:37 am
Point to the last GM that became President/CEO of the Packers. I'll wait....
SicSemperTyrannis
November 01, 2023 at 05:46 pm
Inbreeding is the source of the organization's problems. MM did not say they weren't all inbreds:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kdFnfcxhNnA&pp=ygUjbW9udHkgcHl0aG9uIHR3aXQ...
jannesbjornson
November 01, 2023 at 10:17 am
Never say never. The used car dealers can give him an emeritus role, or let him collect tickets @ the Sledding Hill. The present day scenario is imbued with the cult of Dominic Olejniczak and setting the Way-back Machine to the land of mediocrity and collusion.
SicSemperTyrannis
November 01, 2023 at 05:35 pm
CH,
"I do see him making a statement and firing MLF and some of the other coaching staff just to show people he is not just sitting on his hands until retirement."
If that happens? Hallelujah! Butkus first. Butkus now. Butkus yesterday!
jannesbjornson
November 01, 2023 at 07:00 pm
What do these O line coaches have to work with? The best lineman is down for the count. Jenkins is playing on a bad knee. Myers? Patrick could at least cut block a charging DT. Runyan is probably maxed out and his Three Pick to the nth power is riding pine. Tom is holding his own, but is no match for All Pros like Crosby, Hutchinson, or Hunter. Players make coaches.
SicSemperTyrannis
November 01, 2023 at 10:08 pm
Where you say Tom is no match, he matched up against them, and did well.
We have HUGE guys who aren't playing, and haven't played a down. This is criminal malfeasance, with malice aforethought.
Lancer
November 01, 2023 at 08:14 am
Agree 100%. The executive board has to get off their collective A$$ and accelerate the search for Murphy's replacement. MM is on the glide path to retirement and won't be inclined to make many changes while steering the ship. They can pay Murphy and keep him around as a consultant or emeritus guy if that's important somehow.
Even if they decide to replace MLF you are absolutely correct in saying no up and coming coach would take the job knowing big change in executive management is coming in 2025.
packerbackerjim
November 01, 2023 at 09:04 am
Every good organization has succession planning identifying the best candidates to replace critical management positions. They also have contingency planning in case an unexpected vacancy should occur. The Green Bay Parlor Game is now open for debate. Minimally, Eric Bieniemy for HC, Eagles Assistant GM/Director of Scouting/Director Pro Personnel for GM, and John Schneider for CEO/President.
dobber
November 01, 2023 at 09:13 am
I hope that part of that succession plan will be that the new CEO/President will remove themselves from the on-field power structure except in the case of consulting on team-shifting transactions--i.e. let's have a Bob Harlan type who knows their limitations, and empower the GM to manage the team/roster/on-field-oriented aspects of the organization.
T7Steve
November 01, 2023 at 09:52 am
If the Pres doesn't remove himself, there's no point in trying to find a new GM. None worth their salt would apply for such a restricted post. You would only end up with another "yes man".
Bitternotsour
November 01, 2023 at 09:55 am
How often do people give up power? Murphy accumulated it power, lusted after it, and made himself the defacto owner.
If the board wants this to correct this, they'll have to do the restructure prior to hiring, redefine Murphy's job, make the GM also the President of Football Operations, and restructure the operation completely.
Coldworld
November 01, 2023 at 10:57 am
He appoints the board. He runs the football side. He controls everything. This is why the reorganization should not have been permitted by any competent board. It was and here we are. That board, his creature that he chairs, appoints and controls information to is the only means to retire him in terms of duties or completely.
This was inevitably going to happen at some point with that structure destroying the separation of powers between the President, Board and person in control of football. It’s taken less time than I expected, but it’s the pit he dug with his hubris and the Board so improperly approved.
croatpackfan
November 02, 2023 at 05:19 am
Well, Coldworld, it is futile to repeat that to the people. I know I'm doing the same unavailing posts.
The Packers fall started at 2017, when Ted Thompson illness took Ted from his job. Honest as he was and high quality person, Ted tried to retire on time and left his own successor. But Mark "WANI" Murphy did not allowed him that, taking from him power for himself. After he "clean" the house (move his people to the right positions) he let TT to retire and proclaimed new Packers scheme of football operations. That was not using the favorable moment, but systematic execution of his plan. Remember how many Packers personel department people left the organization after WANI announced new scheme? At least 7 or 8, amongst them was son of Ron Wolf.
We do not know much about inside relationships, as that is something every person keep it under secret, acting happy family. Some of them are better, some worse actors, but it is obvious that there is discontent that is growing within each day.
Last Brian Gutekunst press conference was nothing but empty phrases, like "we believe in our guys, we do not need any reinforcements right now as the veterans would take snaps from young guys they need have" and similar shit (sorry, but I can not find better word). I bet with you that Rasoul asked for trade because he has intelligence to see where Packers are moving.
The sadiest thing is that many of the young talent Packers has on the roster will be ruined. They will lose time and they will regres to the level nobody will wanted them, they will be declared as busts.
I thought Brian Gutekunst is voice of reason amongst the "management" group, but, by time passing, I lost my confidence in that. YOu are not staying with the team so badly organized and executing if you do not see "higher" price for that.
Mark WANI Murphy, as intelligent and sly as he is, noticed that things are going bad and he proclaimed that he is not involved anymore in football operation, just receives 2 week reports from GM, HC and Finacial leader Russ Ball. That is his "ticket" to bail himself from the responsibility of this disaster.
ONly what I can suggest to all young players on Packers team is: "RUN AWAY ASAP!" Ask to trade you to any team in NFL, as you'll be facing downfall of your career.
P. S. I saw some of you noticed that I was not commenting often lately. I'm OK. But I do not know what new I can say. Every week is another disaster and things are worse by every game Packers play. I'm certain in my "diagnoses" and have nothing new to add.
Al, on spot as always!
SicSemperTyrannis
November 01, 2023 at 05:50 pm
Lancer, why does MM need to be replaced immediately? Just get him out of football operations, and get rid of his "silos" nonsense that destroys the organization. Having everybody report to Gutey suddenly looks scary, but it's still better than bedlam.
Guam
November 01, 2023 at 08:15 am
The timing of Murphy's retirement is an added complication to the Packer's recovery. The only way I see this working out quickly is for Murphy to fire the rest of the front office and hire a true GM to whom he turns over the keys for the football side of the Packers. Murphy spends the last year of his tenure in his original role of President and NOT responsible for football operations. The new GM gets to hire his coaching staff as well as the rest of the front office and likely be able to attract good people because this only happens with the full support of the Board and an organizational design where the incoming President (mid 2025) will be responsible for non-football operations.
Not a very likely scenario as I believe Murphy is loyal to Ball and Gute and maybe LaFleur. Which means we continue to have the current mess until Murphy retires in 2025.
dobber
November 01, 2023 at 08:39 am
I'm seeing more and more speculation that LaF's got to turn the arrow upward soon, or he'll be out and the coaching staff cleared. Again, speculation, and a lot of that driven by folks looking for clicks--but also some coming from more reputable outlets.
I would not put it past Murphy to not want to go out with his legacy being a fading team that couldn't win it all with one of the greatest QB of all time. I don't think he can sit on his hands enough to leave it for the next leadership group.
Guam
November 01, 2023 at 09:39 am
Dobber: I think you are right that Murphy might act, however he is going to have difficulty attracting top flight talent (GM, coaches, capologist) given his retirement date. People aren't going to want to come to work for a short timer. Murphy is going to have to configure a scenario that provides security beyond 2025 for his new hires. That is going to be challenging.
jannesbjornson
November 01, 2023 at 10:25 am
He would be best served to shuffle out the side door. For the good of the team. He created the pyramid scheme, he can remove it.
Guam
November 01, 2023 at 11:33 am
Doubtful a "presidential" ego allows that solution to happen no matter how much sense it makes.
Coldworld
November 01, 2023 at 05:47 pm
Murphy is not going to want to go out set against the storm that is brewing in Packerland. If we are in a similar state of dysfunction a year from now, Murphy had no way out. His draft send off will be against a background of raging fan rancor and the league knowing he presided over the decline of this team to a bottom feeder.
Everyone knows these are his personal choices driving developments and that he’s deeply involved due to the structure he created. He even said at the time that it’s right that he make the big decisions because if it fails the buck will stop with him.
Like it or not, his last dances led to is not having the cap to buy material improvement next year. No draft, even an all time great one, is going to radically change this team as rookies. There only one hope for him to head this off in time: a complete coaching overhaul. Change the direction of the team, its attitudes. It does not even have to win anything, just be seen to look a lot more promising I terms if approach, desire and competitiveness: on the rise is enough.
For that reason, LaFleur is the logical scapegoat. In this case he probably deserves it. He’s certainly played into it with the inability to correct anything, year in year, game to game and seeing a team getting worse collectively and individually.
There had to be a pressure valve to protect Murphy’s reputation. The only one that might work is LaFleur. We might even see it in season if the losses continue and the team looks so futile.
stockholder
November 01, 2023 at 06:22 pm
It's true they will fire MLF.
MM didn't like letting guys go and drafting new replacements.
He got fired.
But IMO a draft can change this team.
The problem is at LT. Bahk. Murphy's law here.
Gutey kept Nijman. - He should of planned a better replacement.
IF not @ RT. Every decade team--- had starting Ots. (The Blocks.)
Murphy would fire Gute before his reputation, gets damaged.
He drafted Love and replaced Rodgers. Gute's ass is his.
Coldworld
November 01, 2023 at 06:31 pm
In the end it’s most likely going to be a procession. However, no draft saves this team by spring 2025. What the current players become next year, with a new coaching staff, will decide Gute’s fate once the new President is In place, which probably starts in practice unofficially immediately after next season, before the final official retirement.
Bitternotsour
November 01, 2023 at 06:23 pm
What a state of affairs. The guy who created the mess is in complete control of fixing it, or of doing nothing.
I'd call it the worst possible scenario. He drove the last dance bus, he doubled down, he abandoned all fiscal responsibility on the football side, and now Mark Murphy to the rescue?
I have zero confidence in his hiring acumen. I have zero confidence in his football acumen. When he is forced into retirement we're going to find out that he is CTE addled.
dobber
November 01, 2023 at 11:19 am
"however he is going to have difficulty attracting top flight talent "
I teach at a small, private college in rural Michigan. When we need to hire faculty or staff, we have to do so against the odds of small college economics, against the low desirability of a countryside that's a long ways from entertainment and is surrounded by corn and beanfields, against the fact that we don't pay squat.
How do you hire? You target specific things. You look for a skillset and a personality type. You look deeper in the hiring pool than those top couple people you know are going to be able to name their price at any job they want (which doesn't guarantee success--ahem, Josh McDaniels). You mine professional connections that allow you to find that up-and-comer who is starting to show he'll be the coveted guy (think Andy Reid when he was hired by Philly). You need to be exhaustive..and--in the case of sports franchises--you don't let the media anoint a coach for you. Top-flite talent isn't dictated by profile and media, it's dictated by performance 3-5 years down the road.
We kid ourselves when we say "nobody will want that job". There are loads of people who are going to take that shot. You need to be more discerning, more targeted, more thorough, and more critical than you are when you hire Josh McDaniels--the guy the media pundits all want you to hire.
For all we know, the best candidate is already coaching special teams in GB...
Guam
November 01, 2023 at 11:30 am
I know it can be done Dobber, but look at your third paragraph ("How do you hire") and compare it with the search Murphy did when hiring LeFleur - one two hour interview. What are the odds Murphy will get this right?????
Bitternotsour
November 01, 2023 at 06:25 pm
that's a sucker bet.
Bitternotsour
November 01, 2023 at 06:29 pm
Mike McCarthy wasn't a popular hire. Green Bay was foundering. Thompson just had the (correct) sense that McCarthy was right for Green Bay, and right for the time. He was not incorrect.
Most NFL assistants would sell their mothers for a chance to be the guy in the big chair. Regardless of the destination.
Guam
November 01, 2023 at 08:28 am
NP: I wasn't surprised that Douglas was traded. Given this season, I figured anyone approaching 30 (Douglas, P. Smith, Campbell), marketable and with a big contract could be on the trade block. I was a little surprised it was only Douglas that got traded.
I have always believed the Gute's tenure as GM is going to be tied to drafting Jordan Love. Gute passed up the chance to improve the team around Rodgers (1st and 4th round picks) to choose Rodgers' replacement. If Love works out and becomes the next great Packer QB, Gute will be forgiven other sins. If Love is a bust, Gute will go down with him. Right now Gute should be nervous.
TKWorldWide
November 01, 2023 at 09:04 am
Could be that the others you mentioned didn’t generate enough interest to make a deal.
Another player whose future interests me greatly is Aaron Jones.
jannesbjornson
November 01, 2023 at 10:32 am
Buffalo was actively shopping for a starting CB. Gute was fleeced tossing in a five pick, but that is par for the course. Douglas questioned the authority figures and he was moved. They will be hard-pressed to win another game this season if the Locker room has moved on.
dobber
November 01, 2023 at 11:04 am
Chase Young brought a 3 pick from SF (it will be a late 3) to Washington.
Rasul Douglas < Chase Young
What do we really think Rasul Douglas was worth?
jannesbjornson
November 01, 2023 at 11:09 am
Young is damaged goods.
dobber
November 01, 2023 at 11:55 am
Young has played over 85% of the defensive snaps in 7 games for Washington with 5 sacks.
Rasul STILL < Young
The only question is his contract.
SicSemperTyrannis
November 01, 2023 at 05:59 pm
More than moving up 40 draft slots, which is all Gutey got.
It's degrading to everyone on the team. It tells them that they're worthless, no matter how well they do.
And no way does a third round rookie replace Rasul.
Coldworld
November 01, 2023 at 06:09 pm
40 draft spots is not insignificant. Douglas was signed through next year, by the end of which he will be 30. That makes a further contract questionable. We also save about 7 million in cap next year.
Was Douglas going to make this team better enough to more than offset that and a third round pick? Maybe, but I think that most GMs would have taken that offer unless they expected to contend next year.
I’m not thrilled, but I can see the reasons why. It’s certainly not a clear cut screw up as some here suggest. What it tells us is that the management knows they’ve got more on
their hands than one pretty good player can solve in a year.
SicSemperTyrannis
November 01, 2023 at 10:12 pm
"What it tells us is that the management knows they’ve got more on
their hands than one pretty good player can solve in a year."
It also tells us that Gutey is entirely tone deaf, and oblivious to how to motivate his current roster vs ruining their best efforts.
Fire him immediately, but not without taking the time to tar and feather him first.
Coldworld
November 01, 2023 at 11:04 am
The board can. But he chairs it, appoints it … the then head of the executive committee, Olsen, was so fawning as to lead the charge to anoint him. It’s stacked by him with acolytes.
Yes, the board can call an emergency meeting and either remove his authority or dismiss him, but it will take a lot of board members to be very uncomfortable in social environments most likely. If that happens then maybe.
jannesbjornson
November 01, 2023 at 11:12 am
Will the Fans boycott, or follow like sheep commenting into deep space? The management group has failed the test. There should be a mandate for change.
Since'61
November 01, 2023 at 05:29 pm
jannesbvornson - What do you expect the fans to do? We have zero leverage. Thanks, Since '61
Coldworld
November 01, 2023 at 06:35 pm
In Green Bay, that protest is more realistically measured by the number of visiting opponents in Lambeau each week.
jannesbjornson
November 01, 2023 at 06:36 pm
Pitchforks, Hay bales, kerosene and PBR for a start...
SicSemperTyrannis
November 01, 2023 at 05:32 pm
NP,
yes. I had been saying Gutey isn't the core of the problem. I reversed that position yesterday and got downvoted heavily for it, but I stick by my guns. He blew the kiss of death to the team on his way out the door, that's the only way I can make sense out of this. Not because Rasul was going to win us so many games, but because of the effect on morale of the rest of the team canning him will have. It tells everyone they're worthless to the organization.
Tundraboy
November 01, 2023 at 08:32 pm
Your going to love this one NP. Gute thinks Myers is having his best season ever! I hesitated to send this but I just had to let you know. Better you did sooner than later.
https://wisportsheroics.com/green-bay-packers-brian-gutekunst-josh-myers/
SicSemperTyrannis
November 01, 2023 at 10:13 pm
Getting pancaked is the best he's ever played? Ok. And?
croatpackfan
November 02, 2023 at 01:03 pm
Well, considering how bad Myers was in the past, it may be the truth Tundraboy!
Ah, I'm joking out of desperstion...
relleum61
November 01, 2023 at 06:30 am
My nickname for this defense is "Manageable." Any down and distance is manageable for opposing offenses and 3rd & long is never long enough. This has been a problem going back to the late Capers years, but has been ugly the last two games. It seems the only passion on this team is on special teams. That seems to be the only unit with "old school" attitude.
T7Steve
November 01, 2023 at 07:23 am
"3rd down and long is never long enough." Do you notice when they finally do get a stop, someone commits a penalty and they either get the first down or get to try again?
SicSemperTyrannis
November 01, 2023 at 06:05 pm
Are you suggesting that they're throwing their games, trying to get the #1 draft pick? That would be a good strategy but I don't think it's the case.
SweetPotatoGB
November 01, 2023 at 06:47 am
Not much more to say at this point. I love this website and the YouTube channel, so I’ll keep reading and watching; but, it doesn’t look like the Packers will be a competitive team again for a few years.
Coldworld
November 01, 2023 at 06:40 pm
If we are lucky, changing LaFleur and his team could transform this team. That’s if the talent really is there. I firmly believe that there is more there than is currently showing. It’s not just current play but lack of development across the board and regression among a number of players. Turn that around and the team looks very different. That’s Murphy’s last hope to not be in the Hall of Fame chamber of horrors.
SweetPotatoGB
November 01, 2023 at 07:19 pm
I agree that they have everything they need to do well, but if we are talking playoff contenders; then no, it’s going to be a while. I’m not crazy about Lafluer’s coaching, but I think because of all the evaluations going on this season it’s best to keep things the way they are until January. That said, it’s very difficult to see what will happen before that final game against the Bears. Developing these young players obviously needs to be a top priority since they’ll be a young team for a while.
NFLfan
November 02, 2023 at 10:31 am
@SP:
There is something about your posts which gives me an uneasy feeling-that's all I will say for now.
PackEyedOptimist
November 01, 2023 at 06:50 am
BEFORE we drafted him, I said Musgrave was my least-favorite of the draft's TEs, because he NEVER broke a tackle in college, CBs regularly took him down immediately. I said he'd make a better big slot or outside WR given his height and speed but lack of toughness/balance. I don't think learning to stiff-arm will help him.
I liked Kraft more (and was a big fan of Sam LaPorta), and I still think Kraft will be a better TE than Musgrave in a couple years.
One of my biggest disappointments this year is how poorly Christian Watson has developed; he has the same poor contested-catch percentage that MVS used to have.
Douglas was a guy I really wanted the Packers to draft, so I was thrilled when they got him, and I'm sad to see him go.
Dillon ran a 4.5 before the draft, and he should be able to run outside, but the OL has been collapsing so quickly, that every outside run loses yardage. I think that's why we're not seeing as many WR carries as well.
Our DBs continue to have major issues with zone coverage, especially whose responsibility is what. Against today's NFL offenses, that dooms our defense.
I wonder how Jaire feels about releasing Rasul? Alexander wears his heart on his sleeve, so it's easy to imagine him becoming disgruntled...I know he likes Stokes, so maybe he'll be okay? I do think Valentine is going to be a good NFL CB, so fingers crossed.
NickPerry
November 01, 2023 at 07:44 am
"One of my biggest disappointments this year is how poorly Christian Watson has developed; he has the same poor contested-catch percentage that MVS used to have."
Christian Watson may or may not develop but IMO he doesn't have a prayer of amounting to much with Jason Vrable as his position coach.
Vrable is the WR Coach and passing game coordinator. Need I say anything more as to WHY Watson is going backwards?
RCPackerFan
November 01, 2023 at 08:29 am
I think its very fair to ask the question, is Vrable a good coach? Is he who we need to develop this young group of WR's?
I have no clue what kind of coach Vrable is. All i can go with is the results on the field. The results haven't been good, so its fair to ask about their position coach.
Coldworld
November 01, 2023 at 02:20 pm
Is any LaFleur hired coach up to standard?
Tundraboy
November 01, 2023 at 11:33 pm
Certainly not this team's standard.
LeotisHarris
November 01, 2023 at 08:55 am
Jason Vrable graduated with a Bachelor's degree in sports medicine in 2007 from Marietta College and completed a Master's degree in sports management from Robert Morris University in 2009. He played QB at Marietta College.
Here's his coaching history:
South Florida (2007)
Strength intern
Marietta College (2007)
Quarterbacks coach
Robert Morris (2008)
Quarterbacks coach
Syracuse (2009)
Assistant wide receivers coach
Syracuse (2010)
Assistant quarterbacks coach
Charleston (2011–2012)
Offensive coordinator, quarterbacks coach, & running backs coach
Buffalo Bills (2013–2015)
Offensive quality control coach
Buffalo Bills (2016)
Assistant quarterbacks coach & interim running backs coach
New York Jets (2017–2018)
Offensive assistant
Green Bay Packers (2019)
Offensive assistant
Green Bay Packers (2020–2021)
Wide receivers coach
Green Bay Packers (2022–present)
Wide receivers coach & passing game coordinator (2023)
BAMABADGER
November 01, 2023 at 09:10 am
Based on his resume, Vrable has never coached a winning team until he got to watch AR audible out of the Head Cheerleader's asinine play calls. WR play has degraded every year he has been at GB.
dobber
November 01, 2023 at 09:16 am
Watson's usage is very different. They seem to use him mostly on the boundary now rather than getting him the ball underneath and letting him run. Go back and look at his big plays in the latter half of 2022 and you'll see a lot of him catching the ball on the run on 5-15 yard crossers.
If you want him to be your number one, then find ways to feed him the ball so he can BE the number one. Right now, he's not Riker, he's Lieutenant LaForge.
Coldworld
November 01, 2023 at 02:22 pm
He was never a boundary guy in college really either. That’s why he couldn’t catch over his shoulder smoothly. He was a guy they let get in space and just go.
SicSemperTyrannis
November 01, 2023 at 06:12 pm
Make it so, #1
stockholder
November 01, 2023 at 10:49 am
ESPN Fantasy Projection: Watson enters his second NFL season as one of the most intriguing breakout candidates at wide receiver. The 2022 second-round pick didn't see the field much early on in his rookie campaign, first stepping into an every-down role in Week 10. From that point forward, he produced 584 yards and eight TDs on 35 touches. That accounted for the 10th-most fantasy points at the position. The TD rate is obviously unsustainable, but Watson's 23% target share (6.5 per game) and strong play (85th percentile or better in YPR, YPT, aDOT, RAC and YPRR) suggest he's the real deal. Granted, Aaron Rodgers is gone, but Watson has little competition for targets in Green Bay and his contributions as a rusher add to his floor. The 24-year-old is a fringe WR2.
Dobbs- Just more playing time.
dobber
November 01, 2023 at 11:12 am
"Just more playing time"
The guy has played about 85% of the snaps in games when he's been fully healthy this season. I agree that development takes time, but if the brain-trust thinks he's their #1, they need to use him in a way that allows him to grow into or BE that guy. Right now, they're beating their heads against a brick wall and saying: beat harder! We'll get through! He's too easily neutralized in his current usage which is short outs and flat passes, and medium-to-long boundary routes. If they've decided he's not a #1 and they don't really have a #1, that's a different thing altogether.
SicSemperTyrannis
November 01, 2023 at 06:14 pm
#11 could be the #1. If 9 isn't 100%, it doesn't make sense to use him as their #1.
SicSemperTyrannis
November 01, 2023 at 06:09 pm
Why is Jason Vrable bad? Sincere question.
Coldworld
November 01, 2023 at 06:47 pm
Name a WR who has got better under his watch, better routes, timing, Catching it or just generally? I think that’s the point being made. Where is he adding value? I can’t honestly say I know, it’s not visible to me, but nor is the logic of this O generally.
TKWorldWide
November 01, 2023 at 09:09 am
I often remark that 28 had a faster combine 40 than 33. But what do our eyes tell us?
Very disappointed in 9 this year so far. If Love’s deep ball accuracy doesn’t improve, 9’s impact will be muted. But how about catching a shallow crosser and just running away from everybody?
Tundraboy
November 01, 2023 at 02:22 pm
How about running a crosser more than once a game, on average.
SicSemperTyrannis
November 01, 2023 at 06:16 pm
And what happened to using the middle of the field?
SicSemperTyrannis
November 01, 2023 at 06:08 pm
#28 at 4.5 would be SCARY! I wonder what his current best is?
stockholder
November 01, 2023 at 07:00 am
The disaster at Lambeau-
I thought it was Love's processing.
Regardless- he won’t win the MVP.
Trust in Gute-
Was the wait worth it?
And then we heard from Jaire Alexander;
“I think at this point it's pretty obvious
that the defense has to not give up any TDs.
Wasn’t that the point when we started Love.
Gute- Trust in Gute. Was the wait worth it?
I just can’t trust Gute any Longer.
Trading Douglass hurts. No Matter what the reason.
Most point to fiscal responsibility.
But then it’s time Ball becomes the temp GM.
After all somebody took over for TT.
And somebody can take over for Gute. Period.
Murphy is gone in 2025.
Can we pay him to retire early?
I get they don’t want to start Clifford because that
would mean Love is done in GreenBay.
But how can you stand pat and let a player wreck the club.
You sure didn’t want Rodgers too.
Regardless; with 5 picks in the top 100.
And 3 comp picks coming.
Staying with Losers never works.
Why do these people deserve a second chance?
This isn’t the vision any stockholder wants.
jannesbjornson
November 01, 2023 at 10:50 am
The Kool-Aid guzzlers will always defend the Cult. We all saw the slide starting with the selection of King in 2017 over a future HOF guy. Ted was not making any of those picks and Josh Jones was Gutey's heart throb when he was scouting the Southeast sector. Top off the trifecta with Montravious from Auburn and you know who pushed this guy on the roster. He got the ring of power in 2018 and hit gold with Jaire, but soon showed the way to the desert with Jackson, Burks and Ja'Mon Moore filling the AAA lineup. You know the rest of the story...
Bearmeat
November 01, 2023 at 07:10 am
“A short collection of random thoughts…”
I can shorten it for you even more:
https://tenor.com/view/theyre-shitty-ground-keepers-cleaning-major-leagu...
And
https://getyarn.io/yarn-clip/12d3ab56-0249-4a30-bae2-eaa470f2c818
Since'61
November 01, 2023 at 07:35 am
Al's comments about the game are spot on as always. The time management covered by Al is a perfect example of MLF not knowing what to do in the most basic of situations. This team under MLF has not had any idea of how to handle situational football.
When MLF was hired by Murphy after one 2 hour interview I posted that this was a bad hiring practice but said let's give MLF a chance. Well we're 5 seasons in and he's had his chance. I've questioned this coaching staff repeatedly since the loss to Tampa in the 2020 NFCCG.
Since the "We're not idiots" comment by Murphy and blowing up the salary cap with Rodgers and other contracts I've posted that I doubt that the FO which put us into this mess could get us out of it. So far the mess is getting worse not better.
Six seasons in with Gute and the team is disintegrating in front of us. It's not all on Gute. Murphy has a big share of what has happened to the Packers.
Trading Douglas to the Bills for a 3rd round pick makes no sense to me. He will make the Bills a better team and the Bills will likely finish the season with double digit wins which means the Packers end up with a late 3rd round pick, almost a 4th rounder. I'm sure they were financial considerations in moving Douglas but how does a late 3rd round pick help the team.
I agree with NIck Perry that I'm not sure I want Gute making the draft selections in 2024. However as long as Murphy remains I think that Gute and Ball are here as well. If things continue to go as badly as they have so far I could see either a late season or post season move on MLF but who knows. Everything about the Packers seems out of sync at this point. Whatever their plan was when they drafted Love as Rodgers successor is failing badly at his point. There are no signs that either Love or the team is improving as the season progresses. Can't find a better example than Al's of Love's errant pass to Aaron Jones. Even at this point in his career that pass from Love should be automatic in terms of execution.
25+ coaches on this staff and no one seems to be helping the young players develop in their roles. Ridiculous. There is nothing left to say except to watch this play out and hope that the Packers act quickly and decisively to make changes that provide some hope going forward. Thanks, Since '61
Razer
November 01, 2023 at 08:59 am
...Trading Douglas to the Bills for a 3rd round pick makes no sense to me. He will make the Bills a better team and...
And the Packers will be a weaker team. Don't get rid of young, ascending, good football players for poker chips.
...I agree with NIck Perry that I'm not sure I want Gute making the draft selections in 2024...
Gutekunst and company are making way too many draft and contract mistakes to entrust them with a rebuild. Now we have been painted into a corner with a young team, with little real depth and a coaching staff that can't even teach the fundamentals. The saddest part - we did it to ourselves. Who is going to tell the emperor that he has no clothes.
dobber
November 01, 2023 at 09:24 am
"Don't get rid of young, ascending, good football players for poker chips."
It's fine to say that you think they shouldn't have dealt any of their starters and they should have held on to their regulars for this season...but this 2023 season isn't going anywhere. The Packers did not trade away any young ascending players. They dealt a guy who is 28 and, for all intents and purposes, is at his peak and will soon be starting to slide past it. You have to ask if they were going to give him a 4-year-deal (well into his 30s) to keep him around into the next window. Probably not.
Razer
November 01, 2023 at 09:39 am
I guess that I don't want to watch us throw more draft picks into the secondary for guys who can't tackle, have trouble reading a play and aren't available to play on many Sundays. When you find good football players you want to keep them. He is the new Micah Hyde.
SicSemperTyrannis
November 01, 2023 at 06:28 pm
Enter the controversy of Rasul's age: is he 29 now and will be 30 next year?
jannesbjornson
November 01, 2023 at 06:49 pm
He blew a wad of cash on Gary. Douglas called out the cult and his coin goes back to the kitty. Gutedkunst is a true used car dealer.
Coldworld
November 01, 2023 at 06:57 pm
He’s 28 now. He will be 30 before the 2025 season
HawkPacker
November 01, 2023 at 09:43 am
Let's face it, Murphy's 'Silos' program has not worked. I think that this has also trickled down to all of the assistant coaches as well and that is why we are seeing things continue to go badly.
Also, when MLF decided to retain Barry, he took on an enormous task, deciding that Barry would do a good job. My thought at the time was that if MLF makes this type of decision, when most of us wanted him gone, and Barry fails, and I firmly believe that he has, then MLF needs to go as well. This makes perfect sense to me. We have wasted a total year of Barry in trying to get our defense up to speed!
TKWorldWide
November 01, 2023 at 11:14 am
Totally agree. The “silos” model is universally despised!
SicSemperTyrannis
November 01, 2023 at 06:29 pm
Hawk, more than one year has been wasted on Joe Barry.
stockholder
November 01, 2023 at 10:11 am
When MLF was hired by Murphy after one 2 hour interview -
That isn't what is being posted on the web.
After a in depth Look. - Articles have popped up.
That Gute was involved in the process.
Which makes a Lot of sense when Pettine had to be retained.
They just didn't want to interview more.
Murphy wanted to cover Gutes butt and come forward as a leader.
Especially after firing MM. And players support of Petine and the OC.
Coldworld
November 01, 2023 at 11:43 am
Murphy has admitted it was his call, publicly, in writing, from the outset. He said only that no one objected to his choice when he announced it on the plane back. There have been articles out there for ages. Stop the mythologizing.
Since'61
November 01, 2023 at 05:27 pm
Correct Coldworld. Murphy went as far as saying, "I knew after our first meeting that he (MLF) was our guy." Even if that was accurate the Packers should have vetted MLF much further and they should have at least 2 more meetings with him before offering him the Packers HC position.
It was terrible hiring methodology for any organization. Thanks, Since '61
stockholder
November 01, 2023 at 05:43 pm
That part is true. 1st meeting .
Take up the rest with the people on the web.
I'll come back and do share for both of you.
stockholder
November 01, 2023 at 06:00 pm
Pro football Talk
Published 1/10/2019
Not long before getting job offer, Matt LaFleur got a call from Aaron Rodgers
The official version- was Gute hired him after a call from Rodgers
Coldworld
November 01, 2023 at 07:07 pm
No. Not per the press releases, Murphy’s subsequent statements or the official website. Just not true. No amount of wishing on your part will make it true.
stockholder
November 01, 2023 at 07:34 pm
I just gave it to you from the horses mouth.
The press release was Rumor./probables .
The quote is from MLF.
The press releases? were unofficial.
Just stop pissing down peoples back
and tell them it's rain- from Josie Wales
tobinrote
November 01, 2023 at 11:23 am
all since 61 says is sadly true. the raiders showed what needs to be done last night: fire the coach and GM right NOW. we cannot have Gute making the draft selections one more time. Musgrave looks like a bust to me (he cannot keep from falling down) and I am not sure Van Ness was a first rounder either. Back in the days of Harlan and Wolf we were the best run outfit in football. Now we are probably the worst.
SicSemperTyrannis
November 01, 2023 at 06:36 pm
I wouldn't give up on Musgrave or LVN yet, MANY stars in this league have taken years to develop. I would give up on MLF as HC, Butkus as anything, demote Steno back to O line coach. Maybe put MLF as OC, if no one else can be acquired. Promote RB to interim HC.
None of this happens unless the Board holds an emergency meeting to correct MM's silos idea, and hopefully at least removes him from football operations entirely. Change the organizational structure back to something sensible before even looking for the next GM. I don't see why that position can't be vacant for a while, especially now.
Tundraboy
November 02, 2023 at 05:45 pm
Great post Since 61. I would add that like NP , you, and others I am unsure about Gute and the draft, but I also sure as hell do not want Ball in involved in any talent evaluation whatsover. Also I don't think the Bills are all that, not very clutch and a there are a few teams surpassing them this year. So maybe pick will be better than expected.
Razer
November 01, 2023 at 07:41 am
The answers to fix this team are not in that dressing room. The Rasul trade is exactly why this team will not be relevant for some time to come. Gutekunst has trouble identifying good football players and his RAS drafts are yielding poor O-line, D-line, safety and depth at almost all positions. He trades off a good football player and great teammate for a 3rd round draft pick that he doesn't know how to use. Awful.
Here is my map for fixing this shit-show:
Murphy fires Gutekunst before end of season
Murphy reorganizes so that the next GM can pick his guy
Murphy gets the help of some Ron Wolf's to get a solid GM
Murphy disappears
New GM makes the call on the coaching situation
New GM uses his map to architect a football team
New GM drafts football players
New coaches build according to new plan
If we start before the end of this year, we might be back in some form of contention in 4-5 years. Sorry, but the front office and coaching will take at least two years if they choose to recognize the problems.
Bitternotsour
November 01, 2023 at 09:59 am
You mean the same Ron Wolf whose last act was hiring MIKE SHERMAN as GM. Please.
Jesus, buy yourself a clue.
Razer
November 01, 2023 at 10:52 am
...Jesus, buy yourself a clue...
Was this really necessary? I do recall Harlan and Wolf bringing us back from obscurity despite some mistakes.
Bitternotsour
November 01, 2023 at 06:06 pm
when exactly was that. I'll help. It was 30 years ago. Let's turn our hopes to Ron Wolf, he has his finger on the pulse of the NFL...
T7Steve
November 01, 2023 at 10:08 am
At least you have to be happy for Rasul, getting to go to a contender instead of staying on a losing proposition.
jannesbjornson
November 01, 2023 at 11:05 am
The scenario Harlan used when Wolf came onboard moving Bratz out of the way, then shit-canning Infante.
Can lightening strike twice? I would poach from Veach's crew in Kansas City.
Tundraboy
November 01, 2023 at 07:45 am
Well that sums up just about everything wrong. MLF. But as Al saw, and we all did, in only the first few series, he coaches not to lose and the mind numbing lack of any changes is astounding. Doesn't matter what talent we have or assemble. Just going to have to ride this stupidity out I guess.
Bitternotsour
November 01, 2023 at 10:00 am
All gas, no brakes.
Tundraboy
November 01, 2023 at 02:23 pm
Lmao
jlc1
November 01, 2023 at 07:48 am
Next season? I think there is a real chance that the next time GB has a winning season the only familiar face will be Carlson. Too much to fix top to bottom and that takes time.
PeteK
November 01, 2023 at 07:56 am
--- Douglas was the best tackler, but let's move on with draft, cap space, and youth. Might as well at this point.
---Yes, Love has accuracy issues, but all pro and high drafted players should catch imperfect throws. Too many drops on top of poor O line play leads to no rhythm on offense.
---WE need at least a solid LT and a veteran C. I'm not going to play Mon morning QB, every expert had Myers as a top C, the draft is a tough process.
--- I'm disappointed with the misses on long passes, but I remember even HOF Rogers constantly missing MVS on those passes, but on the next play Rogers to Adams would bail us out.
-- Very difficult to see a sputtering offense after so many years of great offense. Have to stay positive and hope for future development and new players, keeping the players positive will be the coaches #1 job. After 2017 & 18 the future looked bleak and look what happened.
HawkPacker
November 01, 2023 at 09:49 am
'every expert had Myers as a top C' Possibly, but we had a chance to take the top C, Creed Humphrey, who was then taken with the very next pick. This was a screw up!
SicSemperTyrannis
November 01, 2023 at 06:44 pm
Any coach that can create a positive outlook in these players right now would be AMAZING.
Meadow23
November 01, 2023 at 07:57 am
Ditto to comments from the beach. Regarding the trade of Douglas and a 5th for a third - based on his POOR record of 3rd round picks, Guty will make this a big negative.
Curt
November 01, 2023 at 08:39 am
Giving up a player like Rasul for moving up what may be 35-40 places in the draft is nothing
T7Steve
November 01, 2023 at 10:55 am
Maybe he's planning to bundle some picks to move up? Even trading back from the third round has got to be on the table. Maybe a third-round center? HA!
jannesbjornson
November 01, 2023 at 11:25 am
Only Incompetence can lead to whiiffing on 80% of third round picks. It is one of the safer spots in the draft to hit on a player for depth, or a starter like McKenzie. Do not give this guy another chance to further weaken this lineup. He cannot be defended.
RCPackerFan
November 01, 2023 at 08:07 am
Luke Musgrave
The biggest thing I want to see from Musgrave is to actually be able to catch a pass on the run. He is constantly having to start and stop, catch the ball and usually is getting hit when he turns around. I want to see him put in the slot or our wide and see what he can do with the ball on the move.
Jaire Alexander should probably not have been playing.
No he shouldn't be. Clearly he was not fully healthy.
Rasul Douglas,
I hate that Douglas is no longer on this team. If Stokes was back playing it probably wouldn't bother me as much. But he is out for the next 3-4 games or whatever it ends up being. But Douglas was a heartbeat in that locker room. He is a guy that deserves better then what he got around him. I kind of hope we hear from him about his thoughts in GB and what he thought of Barry.
I'm really tired of the "defense only gave up xx points and kept them in the game" argument.
THANK YOU!!! I am sick of seeing this argument as well. Just for example last weeks game against Denver. The offense struggled the first half which has been the norm. But the fight and crawl back into the game and take the lead in the 4th Quarter. What does the defense do? They allow them to march right down the field in FG range. Ohhh but at least they didn't give up a TD. Who cares, they gave up the lead.
This week I think they gave up something like 8 or 9 3rd and 8 or more. That is insane. Maybe, just maybe its because they are constantly playing 10 yards off the ball?
Lets look at the Vikings game.
First drive. they allow a 3rd and 8 completion for 10 yards. They get to 3rd and10 and give up 9 yards. Joseph missed the FG.
Second drive. its 2nd and 12. They give up 11 yards for a 3rd and 1.
Third drive. Its 3rd and 8 they give up 21 yards. They get to another 3rd and 8 and give up 5. This time they get the FG.
Fourth Drive. Another 3rd and 8 they convert. This time they finally make them punt.
Fifth Drive. 3rd and 9 they give up 32 yards. 2nd and 9 they give up 8 making it 3rd and 1. they get 12 yards. 3rd and 3 they hold them to 2 yards but give up the first down on 4th and 1.
6th drive was 1 play TD.
7th drive. They had 2nd and 17 after a great first down play. They give up 6 yards making it 3rd and 11. They get the stop but roughing the passer on Gary. Gives them a first down. They later hold them to a 3rd and 8 and allow the first down. Somehow they actually got them to a third and fourth in long and blocked the FG.
9th drive (with Hall as QB). 3rd and 8 they give up 16 yards.
I don't get people criticizing Aaron Jones for not catching that early pass from Love.
It wasn't a great throw but Jones has to catch that. It hits him in the hands. Gotta catch it.
golfpacker1
November 01, 2023 at 08:24 am
I was thrilled when we drafted Watson. Finally, an early WR who was big, fast, and had great potential. Other than the injuries which we can't control, his problems can be corrected with coaching and practice. It shocks me when I see Pro or even College receivers who don't catch 90% of their passes with their HANDS. Go and get the freaking ball! Watkins plays like his arms are 2 feet long and he is 6 feet tall. Maybe they should watch Devontee Adams highlights every week to learn that every thrown ball is theirs.
Unless we can guarantee that we can draft a 3rd round OT who immediately starts and plays well, our 1st pick has to be one of the 3 best OT's in the draft. If we don't have good o-line and d-lines, we have no chance to be consistent winners. I would love to draft Harrison from Ohio State as he will be a game changer from day one, but we don't have that luxury with Bahk always injured and past his prime. What a colossal mistake not to trade him this has turned out to be. Hopefully we don't compound it by getting nothing in return by not moving Jones, Campbell, Smith, and Dillon before the end of the year. Too expensive and not productive to keep. We will be lucky to get anything for Bahk now. The reload is officially a rebuild now.
HawkPacker
November 01, 2023 at 09:57 am
GP, I think if we have one of the top first round picks, we should draft the best player available. A player that is a 'can't miss' player. A player that will change the dynamics of the packers. I think that player could be Harrison, just based on what I have heard/read.
I know many will want an OT and I certainly understand that. However, we can't be sure that one of the available first rd tackles will work out. Look at Sherrod that we picked in the first round. It never worked out for us. We will 2 second round picks. Could there be an OT available then?
jannesbjornson
November 01, 2023 at 11:34 am
The strength of the 2024 draft is OTs and WRs. Get one of each from round one and then snag another Guard. Tom can go to center and bag a veteran QB to challenge for the starter's job. Sherrod would have been a solid RT, but his ankle was destroyed for good.
barutanseijin
November 01, 2023 at 10:50 pm
AJ Hawk was supposedly a safe bet at the five slot in ‘’06. Picks like that amount to playing not to lose.
SicSemperTyrannis
November 01, 2023 at 06:50 pm
We've got OTs, look at the roster. What we need are interior linemen. Even with Zach Tom on the interior where he belongs, we're thin there.
egbertsouse
November 01, 2023 at 08:30 am
This debacle can be laid at the feet of Murphy and Gute. Failure to trade Rodgers earlier, busting the bank to keep him, failing to get offensive players in the first round, failing to adequately replace Bahk or fix the problem at center are all on them. Don’t get me wrong, the coaches are sub-par, but this is bad team full of high RAS guys who can’t play football.
Razer
November 01, 2023 at 09:44 am
...This debacle can be laid at the feet of Murphy and Gute...
So, so true. So who is going to call them out and make moves to fix this weakness at the top? Given our structure, we could be years in denial and inactivity. We probably have another year with the "its a young team" then a coaching change. May take a while to get to the top.
If only Bob Harlan and Ron Wolf could address the Board... sigh
Bitternotsour
November 01, 2023 at 10:11 am
Ron Wolf is sitting in his boxers watching TV gnawing on a cold hot dog. No thanks.
Perhaps just have the board exercise some common sense. and let's leave the infirm to their TV's and their bed slippers.
dobber
November 01, 2023 at 12:07 pm
Really, the board is just a prestige piece for its membership. Virtually all these folks are community leaders, higher-profile business folks, etc. that are there for the ability to say "I'm on the Board of the Packers". The structure mirrors very closely the board of trustees of a small college or university. It's not truly functional in and of itself. None of these folks are paid for their role.
https://www.packers.com/team/executive-committee
The Executive Committee itself is what really matters. Who's there and what are they doing?
Bitternotsour
November 01, 2023 at 06:07 pm
I stand corrected. I'm looking for a lifeline.
Tundraboy
November 01, 2023 at 02:29 pm
I don't disagree but I wonder if some can play football, it's just how they are taught, and what they are not taught by this crew has them confused and overwhelmed to the point their heads are spinning.
MooPack
November 01, 2023 at 08:31 am
I hate to say, but I'll be ok with this team losing out the rest of the season. Not tanking, because that connotation gives this front office some tactical or strategic legitimacy for higher draft picks. No, I want the board and fans to see the complete ineptness of the organization by seasons end. Hopefully then may we see a call for heads to roll from top down. All of them. In a Machiavellian way. Leave no remnant.
I don't think I can hold my breath until 2025.
Tundraboy
November 01, 2023 at 02:32 pm
I agree if the stench from the performance of the product on the field worsens to the point it will sicken everyone... Machiavelli would approve.
dobber
November 01, 2023 at 09:01 am
"Luke Musgrave has to learn to use a stiff arm."
He's young and green...which sounds like a continued excuse, but he's played a comparatively small amount of college football in comparison to the other TEs coming out last spring. They've trusted him as the lone TE to block more often than I expected, which might be a miscalculation. He needs good coaching...he needs more time on a weight program. I don't doubt he'll get the second in GB...but the first?
"Jaire Alexander should probably not have been playing. "
He didn't look like himself on Sunday. You could see some of his turns and movement were labored (and not in a lazy kind of way). Back injuries can be tough...and they tend to linger. I give him credit for trying to play.
"Rasul Douglas, one guy who really cared and competed on every play"
He is a good, but not great, player--and while he was competitive and had a rebirth in GB, you have to ask yourself why we're not saying the same things about others in the locker room.
I agree that I'm not surprised he was moved, in part for the reason above. His contract structure leaves the acquiring team with little financial obligation in 2024, and a team like Buffalo that has good CBs coming back from injury might be saying that this is a rental and they'll cut him loose or force a pay cut. It's entirely possible he ends up back in GB on a different deal in 2024.
Many people seem to think the Packers gave him away, but based on other deadline deals for young or quality players, he brought good value. I don't know what people think he was worth. He's not young, and at this stage he's really just a bridge player (or gone this coming off-season). The Packers were likely to need to ask him to either take a pay cut in 2024 or cut him loose, in which case there would be no compensation. The Packers have young players they need to evaluate--which leads to a significant contradiction in arguments--so many complained because the Packers dealt someone, but they were the same people who said the Packers should be tearing it all down at the deadline. Pick a lane, folks.
"They can't get off the field on third down. "
Most frustrating part of Sunday: the Vikings were not at all efficient on early downs and had plenty of 3rd and 6+ situations, which they seemed to convert with ease. It's a very different game if the Packers could just turn a portion of those third and longs into punts. Add that to an offense that does little but 3 and outs in the first half, and those long drives against the Packers in the second half are all but assured.
"There's little doubt when AJ Dillon is the lone RB, teams are looking for an inside handoff first and foremost....And there's little doubt LaFleur has an Aaron Jones blind spot. "
This is the most perplexing part of personnel usage. Dillon is the most predictable piece on the field. There's no illusion of complexity there. If we add the point that the OL struggles to get push and sustain blocks, it becomes even more maddening. At this stage, it can't be about assessing Dillon--they know what he is. The offense shifted--if I read the snap counts right on Monday--toward more 11 personnel v. the Vikings...is that saying the coaching staff thinks that Dillon, Musgrave, and 3 WR are the best playmaking options they have?
Dillon is a fullback. He's not a one-dimensional William Henderson type FB, he's a better runner than John Kuhn, but he's not a big-back Derrick Henry-type, either. As pointed out, his best down-to-down value is as a change of pace, a blocker, and pass catcher mostly on late downs. He's a mudder, and we may see an uptick of productivity when crappy weather comes.
More two back sets? Get some variety out there and put your best playmaker (Jones) on the field with him, or at lease generate some uncertainty or variety. Move these guys around--split them out, motion them, or even go with a traditional 2-back "pro" set--and create some need for a defense to diagnose and adjust---or is that just too complex?
RCPackerFan
November 01, 2023 at 09:40 am
"He's young and green...which sounds like a continued excuse, but he's played a comparatively small amount of college football in comparison to the other TEs coming out last spring. They've trusted him as the lone TE to block more often than I expected, which might be a miscalculation. He needs good coaching...he needs more time on a weight program. I don't doubt he'll get the second in GB...but the first?"
Don't forget that he missed most of last year also. I'm sure there is some rust to knockoff as well.
"More two back sets?"
Yes. I feel like the 2 back set could be pretty good. When Jones and Dillon are on the field at the same time and they get the motion going it is making defensive players pause. If they don't want to overuse Jones, then put Wilson in that role. I wish they would go and get Goodson because he is a perfect RB for that role.
I do wonder if that is one of the things that LaFleur was talking about planning to run more but couldn't get it going because they couldn't get first downs. Not sure.
SicSemperTyrannis
November 01, 2023 at 07:04 pm
While I want Goodson back too, they haven't tried #31 Wilson to any meaningful degree. Yet one more unforgivable mistake by our HC.
Packerpasty
November 01, 2023 at 11:28 am
why are we not saying the same thing about others in the locker room?? He is not a "great" player but at least he seemed to care about the direction the team was heading and how others were playing...every team needs a fire up type guy, who else do the Packers have?? Gary maybe...
SicSemperTyrannis
November 01, 2023 at 07:01 pm
Dobber, great points. I have to question if either MLF or Gutey could comprehend what you wrote. Using the FB position was an exciting part of the off-season plan, and putting Dillon into that role should have been obvious when Pearson was lost for the season.
MLF has said he has to get #33 involved in the game more so many times he's admitted to incompetence as a HC. Replacing him should be beyond obvious, even to Mr We Are Not Idiots.
Racingdad
November 01, 2023 at 09:22 am
As I posted above - were the players drafted in 20 and 21 busts ? Or just poorly coached ? I believe what we are seeing now is complete failure of coaching on all levels !!!
Coldworld
November 01, 2023 at 06:24 pm
Wyatt played well last week. Walker is starting to make more impact plays. Tom is a good pick. We are starting to see played emerging, just not at Offensive skill positions. The reason for that is that this O is flawed—just look at the returns in scripted plays, players look ill prepared and technically deficient. Then there’s the question of what on earth the team is doing on the OL compounding that.
jannesbjornson
November 01, 2023 at 07:18 pm
The Curve seems to be revealing a highly correlated Bust coefficient across the board 2020-21. No SB 4 You.
MooPack
November 01, 2023 at 09:23 am
The Raiders cut bait.
dobber
November 01, 2023 at 09:29 am
My guess is that there was significant friction between Zeigler/McDaniels and Davis. McDaniels has no reputation for being easy to work with.
MooPack
November 01, 2023 at 09:40 am
ESPN article points to a chronology of bad decisions.
13TimeChamps
November 01, 2023 at 11:09 am
He was shown the door in Denver before the end of his 2nd year as well. He seems to wear on people fairly quickly.
There were a number of folks on here that wanted him after McCarthy was let go. So glad that didn't happen. Now that he's been fired twice...and bailing on Indy after they hired him...I think his head coaching opportunities are done.
TxFred
November 01, 2023 at 09:24 am
MLF &Staff CAN not or WILL not coach and develop the young, coachable team.
Either case is a fireable offense.
I cannot see MLF finishing the season. If he is then shame on management.
SicSemperTyrannis
November 01, 2023 at 07:06 pm
MLF shouldn't finish the week.
Tundraboy
November 02, 2023 at 05:51 pm
Exactly, Let's just cut to the chase already.
BAMABADGER
November 01, 2023 at 09:25 am
Murphy has to go first, otherwise we are stuck in a Do Loop.
He hired the Head Cheerleader after one short interview
He created this mess when he siloed the football operations forcing the GM, HC, and Player contract/cap manipulator dufus report individually to Alfred E. Newman. His decision not to allow all football operations to be handled by the GM created this disaster.
Flush Alfred E. Newman at year end. Unfortunately the Board is made up of a majority of woke bankers. It won't happen. The board should be headed by a majority former players and football managers who understand the game.
dobber
November 01, 2023 at 09:35 am
" The board should be headed by a majority former players and football managers who understand the game."
This is how they ended up in this situation.
I don't care if the board is full of bankers, lawyers, doctors, and car dealers. They need to be headed by a CEO who understands how to run a diverse "company", and who knows how to cede responsibilities to those with functional knowledge in their areas--community engagement, facilities management, philanthropy, business management and development, and on-field player-personnel management. Hire good professionals. Get out of the way and let those professionals do their jobs.
jlc1
November 01, 2023 at 10:55 am
Bingo Dobber.
Coldworld
November 01, 2023 at 11:59 am
You mean the Harlen structure? Yes, but this time write it into the articles of the foundation that the two jobs cannot be combined.
NFLfan
November 01, 2023 at 09:36 am
The current FO has shown its hand. The 'board' has been hand-picked by MM and won't act as an independent entity for the sake of the team's health, IMO. Gute seems to be heir apparent. Will he make the far-
reaching fundamental structural changes necessary to prevent the boundary crossing MM indulges in?
The current Packers brain trust moves @ glacial 'speed' when glaring personnel problems arise; ie., Drayton, Barry, Stenavich, MLF, A. Rogers, and so on. Are they going to fire or demote Stenavich? Fire MLF? Barry?, the majority of the incompetent assist. coaches?
I see status quo with perhaps, Bisaccia gaining more authority. But, is that enough? He hasn't impressed me either.
2025 does not guarantee a shake-up of any significance.
dobber
November 01, 2023 at 09:38 am
Gute is no President/CEO. He's been second-guessed and hamstrung by Murphy on a regular basis. I'd be looking more at Ball as that guy than Gute.
Coldworld
November 01, 2023 at 11:56 am
Ball pissed off McCarthy and Rodgers and gutted the roster. That’s why Murphy aborted his plan to make an accountant his GM after TT. He’d been running the FO on the quiet for 3 years. He’s known to have rubbed a lot of people and particularly player personal pro people the wrong way too.
Rumors suggest the Lawyer/developer of Title Town, Ed Policy. I can’t see him handling football at least, if he were to them we really are into farcical territory.
Zapato
November 01, 2023 at 09:36 am
I think your rant pretty much sums up the frustrations we've all been feeling this year. But we all knew this would be a tough year for the Pack and we're all still spoiled by 30 years of stellar QB play. I haven't given up on Jordan Love. Yes, he needs to work on his accuracy big time. However, I think he is really suffering from a lack of a supporting cast. The offensive line is pretty much offensive. The receivers/tight ends are too young to have an impact and Aaron Jones hammy seems to still be limiting him. So yeah! Jordan Love is getting jumpy in the pocket because it collapses too often and receivers don't get open or run wrong routes. The run game isn't helping either. What's a guy to do?
I think your comments on the defense are spot on. Seems like they lean entirely on the "bend, don't break" philosophy and teams just march down the field at crucial times late in the game. Problem is, that's when the defense breaks and gives up points, or we lose valuable time for the offense. I never was a fan of Joe Barry and this year hasn't proven that he can build a successful defense either. He just needs to go.
This team, as bad as it is, lost three games by five points or less. Our record could be better. I think one big problem is that the coaching staff hasn't been preparing this team for games properly. We do absolutely nothing with the football in the first half. I blame that on the coaching staff's player prep and game planning. When the offense gets going in the second half, the defense fails to make critical stops to get the ball back to the offense. I'm not saying the offense is going to score every time they get the ball back, but it at least gives them another shot at it.
Bottom line, I just think coaching let out a big brain fart this year. It stinks!
Packers1985
November 01, 2023 at 12:07 pm
"Jordan Love is getting jumpy in the pocket because it collapses" This i dont agree with somebody already shared the stats yesterday he has been in bottom half in terms of pressures plus 7th least sacked qb i guess. Even when pocket was clean he seems to be Jumpy and making things difficult. Please check Jt sullivan's analysis on Jordan loves last week's play against the Broncos. The line is very poor in run blocking but coming the pass protection they have been decent.
I am not blaming it totally on Love here yes he has issues for sure but most of the team on offense has issues too. So it's not totally on him for the offensive struggles it starts with Lafluer.
SicSemperTyrannis
November 01, 2023 at 07:12 pm
Saying players can't catch because they're too young is not an excuse I'm buying. Had they been working over 2 hours every day since the first OTA on just catching the ball, there wouldn't be this many drops.
pantz_bURp
November 01, 2023 at 10:02 am
Like a Lungfish in suspended animation, I truly was willing to be patient with the Packers this season and into next. That was with the assumption of seeing eradic play and mental mistakes, etc.
What I didn't see coming is this version of steadily getting worse as the season went on. This coaching staff knew this was coming and had ample time to prepare with the players they have. (injuries happen)
I am not mad at the coaching staff the more I believe they are so far in over their heads...they are incapable of turning things around.
*I have dreams where the Beer Barrel Polka song is being played 5x too slow. It is etched in my mellon. Gonna crank Milli Vanilli now...Blame it on the Rain.
Go Pack Go....some on the floor, out the door...Go Pack Go.
*to the players that truly give it their all, inspite of the circumstances: thank you! It is appreciated.
38" inseam Pantz
Starrbrite
November 01, 2023 at 10:06 am
You said everything as how I witnessed the game. Especially Love’s poor throw to A. Jones which should have been an easy pitch/catch. I believe it’s Love’s footwork causing most of the inaccurate throws.
Imo, the clock management at the end of the first half is an indicator of the coaches trust of Love—it was a clear surrender for a FG.
I too believe Jaire should not have been playing—his play looked cautious (protecting his injury).
The ridiculous lack of touches for A. Jones is unmistakable evidence of MLF’s poor coaching ability. Jones has many times demonstrated his skill for goaline success , but instead we use the lumbering OX Dillon.
Go Packers!!!
jlc1
November 01, 2023 at 11:03 am
Lack of touches for Jones has been a constant throughout MLF's reign. He is a lousy judge of talent, on the field and sidelines.
Starrbrite
November 01, 2023 at 11:09 am
Yes indeed.
Packerpasty
November 01, 2023 at 11:25 am
one would think after three years of coaching at the NFL level a QB could show improvement on footwork and accuracy...
Tundraboy
November 02, 2023 at 06:00 pm
True,but when the line keeps changing, it is far from putting your player in a position to succeed. Constant fire drills.
Swisch
November 01, 2023 at 10:21 am
Instead of picking up a veteran or two at the trade deadline to boost the team for the second half of the season, the Packers traded one of our best in Douglas for a draft pick; which is more than a little discouraging as far as morale for players and fans, and seems futile in that drafting more young players doesn't make sense when we can't get our current young players coached up to perform well in games; which has me wondering if the Packers should do something like the Raiders did in clearing out management.
pantz_bURp
November 01, 2023 at 10:52 am
I always enjoy reading your opinions/thoughts Swisch, thanks! (hope all is well)
Swisch
November 01, 2023 at 02:14 pm
Thanks much, pb, for the nice note.
Almost all is well, for which I am thankful.
I truly hope you are well, as well.
pantz_bURp
November 01, 2023 at 04:09 pm
Glad to hear Swisch. I am doing well, thanks! 👍
Packers0808
November 01, 2023 at 11:16 am
Douglas pissed off the management and most likely he did so on purpose with the thought in his head to get the hell out of Dodge and it worked as he planned. This management crowd is stuck in the limbo of Love for themselves.
Tundraboy
November 02, 2023 at 06:07 pm
I could see that seeing the frustration on his face this past week's game. Absolutely. Good for him.
Ferrari-Driver
November 01, 2023 at 11:18 am
Two things have ended the hopes of physically talented quarterbacks and they have proven to be extremely difficult to overcome. They are accuracy and the ability to read defenses. Jordan Love struggled with accuracy, especially the long pass routes, both in college and thus far in the NFL as well. Accuracy may be one of those things like the ability to be an artist (no matter how hard I've tried over the years, I have been unable to draw a picture of dog that is recognizable). If the Packers are convinced that Love is not the long term answer, there are a few quarterbacks in this years NFL draft that they could consider. Regarding the ability of Love to read defenses, I'll have to defer to others who have examined that aspect of his play.
Swisch
November 01, 2023 at 02:42 pm
A thumbs up for me, Ferrari, with a note that I'm highly reluctant to give up on Love so early in his career as a starter, especially as the offense of the Packers seems in such disarray.
I've heard that you can't teach accuracy, but I don't understand why that should be so. I'd rather give Love an opportunity with a different teacher before I get a different quarterback.
***
I will say that with the drops against the Vikings -- including the one to Jones mentioned above by Jersey Al -- it seems that most of them were a little off target and/or tightly covered by the defense.
All of them were balls that were catchable, though, including the one to Wicks in the fourth quarter that was a little behind but really should have been nabbed for either a touchdown or a first down inside the 5-yard-line. A touchdown there brings the Packers to a deficit of only seven points with plenty of time left to go.
It's hard for me to believe that Love cannot hone his passing accuracy with experience.
Overall, he throws a good ball, and it would seem he can build off of that.
***
I also wonder how adept Love is at reading defenses and scanning the field, but that's a question I have about all quarterbacks. I'm not all that capable of discerning this ability.
However, I would also ask if the Packers receivers are generally running wild and free in the secondary and Love is just not seeing them. I don't get that impression.
Actually, I'm not confident that our young receivers know their routes all that well, or that the offense in general is facilitating them getting open.
***
It took the likes of Steve Young, Rich Gannon, Vinny Testaverde, and Doug Flutie several years in the NFL to become stars, as I understand it, even longer than our own late-blooming legend, Bart Starr.
To me, now is the time to get behind Love and really encourage him to persevere. I still think he can be a top-10 quarterback in the NFL, and what is more lead the Packers to a championship.
I'm much less hopeful about Murph, Gute, and LaFleur doing their jobs to make the team a winner.
SicSemperTyrannis
November 01, 2023 at 07:21 pm
Accuracy can absolutely be taught, and learned. JL10 has thrown some incredibly accurate passes, and at great distance. Doing that while all hell is breaking loose, and doing it consistently, are very different from doing it behind an O line you can trust.
No way to evaluate him now. Gutey got that much right.
Packerpasty
November 01, 2023 at 11:24 am
I agree Jones shouldn't be faulted for not catching that pass from Love...it was just another of a long string of passes that a player cant catch in stride...always behind a bit or too high...his accuracy is not going to improve he is what he is...medocre QB who could win when surrounded by a team of really good players...which is not the current Packer roster...Rasul got the boot for being too outspoken on coaching and players...he was tired of the "young" excuse and stated so...off to a winning team...not so bad for him!!!
Coldworld
November 01, 2023 at 12:01 pm
This is becoming a bit of a myth. His adjusted (non drop) rate had been at about 70 percent the last few weeks by all
Metric providers. Not elite certainly but certainly not what you depict.
Packers1985
November 01, 2023 at 12:19 pm
I dont know about last few weeks but certainly last week he played good. He played good compared to last few weeks. Here is the post from pete about adjusting drops completion percentage.
"Jordan Love has the second-highest drop rate among 30 qualifying QBs per
@PFF
Adjusting for drops his completion percentage is … 30th out of 30."
SicSemperTyrannis
November 01, 2023 at 07:26 pm
Managers who cannot take criticism need to be fired. This pertains to MLF, Gutey, and everyone else involved in that decision if what you say is true. Which it does seem to be. Kick a player out the door, much like benching Nijman. Who do they think they're punishing? It hurts the whole team. They're demonstrating the mentality of a 5 year old.
jboss
November 01, 2023 at 12:18 pm
I understand that you are the kind of fan who is only interested in watching when you are winning, but if you understood how the league is set up, you might be better able to enjoy the game. Since 1990 only the Patriots 330 and the Steelers, 328 have more wins than the Packers 324.
The league is designed to create PARITY and therefore, those that can only enjoy winning, are likely in for a tough time here. Let me guess, you think, Belicheck, sitting @ 2-6 should be fired?
Packerpasty
November 01, 2023 at 03:36 pm
well ive watched 99 % of Packer games since way back...72 when I really started...seen lots and lots of crappy football before Favre arrived...horrible coaching, horrible QB play...I saw many loses in the stands at Lambeau before Reggie came and mystique returned for awhile...I really dont want to revisit those times, too old now..
LeotisHarris
November 03, 2023 at 08:42 pm
el·lip·sis
noun
An ellipsis, or ellipses in the plural form, is a punctuation mark of three dots (. . .) that shows an omission of words, represents a pause, or suggests there's something left unsaid.
Bitternotsour
November 03, 2023 at 10:54 pm
just like this season, one dot short.
Qoojo
November 01, 2023 at 01:45 pm
Better settle in. This is kind of what i expected in the post AR era in GB. Two things need to happen: QB needs to perform better, and GB still needs a defense. The continued lack of defense is why I don't think the packers make any progress until MLF is gone. Compared to past years, the defense appears to slow the opposing team down more, but still can't get off the field or get a stop when it matters.
I also wonder if the packers playing better in 2nd half is more about the opposing team letting up some.
jont
November 01, 2023 at 02:33 pm
"I don't get people criticizing Aaron Jones for not catching that early pass from Love. That was a terrible pass."
Yes. That was a moon ball. Not only made the catch unnecessarily tough but also gave the cover man time to close in. Love seems to aim most of his passes and drill very few.
To get a more positive feeling, I re-watched last year's Dallas game to see Watson get 3 TDs, and it was an eye opener to see Rodgers with his bandaged thumb zip the ball so effortlessly. The skill difference to Love is striking.
Untylu1968
November 01, 2023 at 03:24 pm
Well, at least now we have something legitimate to bitch about! Seems like only yesterday, the packers were a complete failure for not winning the superbowl every year. The sun will come up tomorrow, and life will roll on. Have a cold beer or whatever helps you relax and hope for better things to come from our team.
SicSemperTyrannis
November 01, 2023 at 07:29 pm
Our best hope is to go 2-15, get the #1 draft pick, and have it used by someone who's not Gutey.
Packerpasty
November 01, 2023 at 03:32 pm
Big win coming up...no Stafford ...at Lambeau, holy wah, easy action...hows that for positivities..
Oppy
November 01, 2023 at 09:16 pm
The Packers points scored to points allowed differential on the 2023 season so far: -16.
... -16
That's all the more points allowed than points scored over the first 7 games.
Consider that the Packers have only scored 2 TD's in the first half of play in 2023.
That's only 2 touchdowns scored in 210 minutes of first half play over 7 games.
For reference, the Packers have scored 13 TD's in the second half of games.
If this team figures out how to get in the endzone early in games, they're winning a lot of games.
The results are ugly right now, but to turn this around doesn't take much.
pantz_bURp
November 02, 2023 at 11:28 am
If, and I mean if Love seems to be fading with three games left in the season....for the love of God, hire a marriage counselor to be present on the sidelines.
If the blue tent isn't being used for injury evaluations, let them go in there to mend and sort things out.
That was easy,
Ol' huck n buck Pantz
golfpacker1
November 18, 2023 at 02:15 pm
Oppy our point differential was very similar last year to what we are seeing this year. I watch that particular stat all year and it really tells what you have, or don't have in a team. Our first half scoring numbers are terrible this year and it's killing us.
I am doubly cursed as I am an Iowa fan, and we can't score in the first OR second half. At least we finally got rid of our OC so next year theoretically our offense won't be a shitshow anymore.
This year is looking like a wash for GB. This draft is going to be so important for how quickly we can get better and relevant again. With compensatory picks and a couple of trades after the season, (Jones, Bahk, D. Campbell, P. Smith) to name 4, we will be looking at a dozen plus likely picks. A new starting stud OT in the first, and then Safety, DT, CB, Edge in some order would be a good start.